RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things..

RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 9:39:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u ... annoyed with me again I see.... your interpretation would be wrong. ... Mildly amused would be more accurate. But, that is passing to disinterest.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 9:44:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u I'm passive and aggressive.... LOL Which is not the same as being passive-aggressive. Personally, I'm unclear as to what part of True's post came off passive-aggressively. Knight, I have to admit I read your words and was guite surprised to hear you state that you had no interest in trying to understand things outside your interest. I have no interest in joining an organized religion, for example, but I've always enjoyed debating theology with anyone who has a different viewpoint from mine. I live to have my mindset expanded that way. I don't think we ever truly grow as intelligent human beings unless we try to understand things outside of our own interests. I spent a fun year addicted to bad TV Wrestling, because a dom I played with was addicted. I'll probably never watch wrestling again, but entering into his mindset, and seeing it from his angle will always be a great memory. (I also remember emphatically telling him I'd never be interested in having my hair pulled...Thank gawd, I was willing to explore it with him despite my "lack of interest"!) So many experiences, and so many things, I'd never have grown to appreciate had I not attempted to understand things outside of my own pre-recognized interests. Human beings are such diverse creatures, and I'm only sorry that I'll never be able to explore everything this life has to offer, at least intellectually. Cin

truesub4u -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 9:50:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u ... annoyed with me again I see.... your interpretation would be wrong. ... Mildly amused would be more accurate. But, that is passing to disinterest. KoM.... thank you.

kyraofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 10:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful Knight, I have to admit I read your words and was guite surprised to hear you state that you had no interest in trying to understand things outside your interest. I have no interest in joining an organized religion, for example, but I've always enjoyed debating theology with anyone who has a different viewpoint from mine. I live to have my mindset expanded that way. I think the confusion is coming from the specific word "understand". For us, there is a distinct difference between understanding and appreciation. Understanding is not needed in order to be open-minded or for asking questions about someone's interest. We just need to appreciate the other's perspective and view points. I have no need to understand the things that are not of interest to me, and to expect that I would understand them would be unrealistic. However, I can appreciate that someone else understands them and is interested in them. kyra

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 10:05:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Understanding is not needed in order to be open-minded or for asking questions about someone's interest. You're absolutely right. But personally, I adore using my brain to attampt to understand things beyond my own viewpoint. It's how I grow, and learn, and discover more about myself, and the world around me. There's very little in this world that I'm not curious to learn more about. Cin

KnightofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 10:13:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful I don't think we ever truly grow as intelligent human beings unless we try to understand things outside of our own interests. I spent a fun year addicted to bad TV Wrestling, because a dom I played with was addicted. I'll probably never watch wrestling again, but entering into his mindset, and seeing it from his angle will always be a great memory. (I also remember emphatically telling him I'd never be interested in having my hair pulled...Thank gawd, I was willing to explore it with him despite my "lack of interest"!) I read this.. I and I see you not first trying to understand.. but appreciating why he enjoys it.... you began to gain an interest and an understanding. We can appreciate anothers interest.. but we can only understand our own! To say that I understand your specific interests would mean that we share exactly the same perception of that interest. I have yet to see a single person that shared the exact perception of another. We all see things differently, what we percieve is what we understand. For another person, I can not expect to ever perceive everything they percieve on a given interest. But, I can make them feel that I appreciate their interests. If I happen to share their interest.. that appreciation grows substaintially. There are many things that we will share with a common interest. But, still I can only appreciate their interests for our perceptions at some point will be different and in that difference will be the lack of understanding. The distinction maybe small... but for me it is significant.

ownedgirlie -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 10:22:10 PM)
Using "Fast Reply" here so not replying to anyone specifically... I agree that understanding and appreciating are two separate situations. Personally, I can appreciate that which I do not understand in others, but I do like to strive toward understanding them, because I like to expand the scope of my thinking. It's why I am back in school, after all, to gain better understanding of areas in life which did not previously interest me (and in some regards, still don't!). In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the desire for better understanding, so long as the one seeking such does so respectfully (thinking of ex husband here, lol) However, having said that, I'd love to see this thread get back on topic, which is about Female Dominants and male submissives, because I find it quite interesting. I must admit I always had an aversion to both. I accepted it in others, but did not understand it, and in the corners of my mind, really struggled with it. I know this is rooted from an overly domineering mother and an overly passive father. I actually think one of the reasons I became so drawn to dominent men is because of my need to see them exercise power. Over time, I have come to understand that all individuals are made up differently, and while there are some generalities, it is difficult to lump everyone into categories and labels (there have been threads on that). While I could not submit to a female (unless of course Master ordered me to, but then I would be submitting to my Master by obeying who he told me to), I have better understanding of how a female can dominate another. I feel I also better understand a male submissive as well. Ultimately, it is the same common demoninator (for the most part) which drives a Dominant or a submissive, and such demoninator can feasibly be found in either sex.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 10:33:22 PM)
You said: quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I don't understand those that want to understand that which is not their interest! I really couldn't careless of understanding anothers interests or desires that are not shared by myself. This is what I was responding to. Personally, I do care about attempting to understand other people's interests and desires even if I don't share them. quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists To say that I understand your specific interests would mean that we share exactly the same perception of that interest. I don't agree. I can understand why one of my exes loves statistics and math, although personally I have an aversion to math. I don't believe I will ever be able to perceive it in the way he does, but it doesn't preclude me from understanding his viewpoint. I can empathize with the feelings he has about it, what he gets from it, and extrapolate from there. There's no need to further try to explain your point of view, KoM, not everyone feels that there's much to be gained by expanding their understanding, but I do believe that for me, it has value. Cin

MistressLorelei -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 11:03:10 PM)
There are so many areas within this lifestyle, and none of us (I don't think) can say she/he enjoys and participates in every, single form of it. To accept what others do is one thing; to understand and relate to these some ideas is something else completely. To address the OP as to what I don't get.... My personal views on the bdsm lifestyle don't see a male in a dominant role... I find it very hard to bypass all the stigma that society has created for so long that women are the weaker, second class citizens who need to be taken care of by the more capable gender. To me FemDom relationships take a less-traveled, less accepted path, and do so despite the negative reception by our society, and those involved do so because it is their natural order.... to them, there is no other way. Do I understand and relate to a submissive female slave? Not one bit.... Do I accept that to another, being a female slave is what fulfills her every need.... I certainly do. I don't relate to most people I bump into... I am a far left, non meat eating tree hugger to most of my close friends.... but we manage to like each other despite of their weaknesses. <smiles>

BitaTruble -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 11:19:30 PM)
quote: I don't understand those that want to understand that which is not their interest! I really couldn't careless of understanding anothers interests or desires that are not shared by myself. If one 'couldn't care less' then what would be the purpose of ever asking a question outside ones field of interest/desires? I would think, in theory, that if one is interested in 'personal growth' than anything and everything could fall under the broadest definition of 'interest' because you never know what may bring personal growth to you. quote: It would like trying to understand what it is like for a woman to have an orgasm. Frankly, I am very happy with my male orgasm and don't really need to understand what it is like for a woman. However, This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate that others have different interests. I might not understand what it feels like for a woman to have an orgasm. But, I can appreciate that it is very enjoyable for them and as a male I can have a positive influence on that enjoyment. So, I show appreciation and acceptance by doing things that increase their enjoyment, learning from them what I can do as a male that would increase their enjoyment. Of course the list goes on... of so many things that I don't understand and never will. But, I can show appreciate and acceptance particularly to those people that are significant to me and my family. I don't think that's a very good analogy. Unless they are gay, most men seem to have a great deal of interest in female orgasms, whether or not they understand them. ;) tic Celeste

truesub4u -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 11:21:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei My personal views on the bdsm lifestyle don't see a male in a dominant role... I find it very hard to bypass all the stigma that society has created for so long that women are the weaker, second class citizens who need to be taken care of by the more capable gender. Burned into this ones mind all her life..... Do not spend your life trying to make no man happy... make yourself happy Do not bow down before no man.... never be a punching bag or door mat. If anyone is a play toy... he is.. for your pleasure.. not you for his. IF he wants a drink... remind him where kitchen is and that his legs and arms aren't broke. Never rely on no man to take car of you... take care of yourself and show hime the door if he tries to control you.... expecially if not married... living with.. or paying your bills. As a matter of fact.. pay your own damn bills and make sure he sees the door daily... lol My mother would kick my ass all over NC if she even knew I actually do any of the first 4 of those.... as far as last one.. Ok.. I still live that way.. I tend to me.. and don't want no one else doing that for me.... single.. living alone..(well with kids)... paying my own bills.. not expecting no one else to do this.... So i've never fell back to the male being more superior... and female weeker... that's why I said in my other post I have the upmost respect for the Female Doms and submissive men... both take strong people to accept and hold onto what they know to be truely them. But so does everyone else in who and what they are as well. All though I know myself.. I never could... personally... submit to a female... but trust me.. everytime I run across some of these asshole Doms in my e-mails and other places...(off line as well).. I swear... I bet I could damn straight dominate a man ... and that feeling gets stronger and stonger daily... shame it's more outta anger or disgust though.. and not with passion and desire.

MistressLorelei -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 12:15:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truesub4u All though I know myself.. I never could... personally... submit to a female... but trust me.. everytime I run across some of these asshole Doms in my e-mails and other places...(off line as well).. I swear... I bet I could damn straight dominate a man ... and that feeling gets stronger and stonger daily... shame it's more outta anger or disgust though.. and not with passion and desire. Ahhh... but it can so much fun. :) I have been contacted by a pushy, jerky Dom or two myself but they were looking to 'explore their submissive side'... perhaps I could refer them to you. I don't relate to a female slave/sub viewpoint in a relationship... but I don't have to. I accept that others relate to it, and all I expect in return is for others to accept my views of a relationship, whether they can relate to it or not.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 6:25:05 AM)
I don't understand alot of peoples views. I don't understand why some people assume a female sub is weak, and the dom is using them. It's simple she wants to please me and that makes me want her to be happy. For the right sub I'd give up everything to ensure their happiness and well-being. But it would be my choice to do so, and I would without a thought if necessary. I can't see how this is suppressing, and demeaning. But I'd expect that from her as well. So, it's not about hoarding power and control over another, it's simply, I make decisions and rules. That doesn't mean I make decisions that use another and harm them on any unhealthy level, generally when I'm responsible for anything, I take it into consideration way moreso than if I wasn't. And it even doesn't mean they can't suggest things. Oh I'm such a tyrrant. LOL. I think some people don't realize there are benevolant dictators running around. But I decide, how to best make us content. Simple. It doesn't have to do with mowing the grass or lemonade not to me anyway. Going to the grocery store. Those are decisions to be made based on what made the most sense. But running around the house in lingerie will be on that list at least some of the time. I love lingerie. LOL, hehe. My happiness counts to you know.[:D] I don't understand male subs, it seems a completely different dynamic than female subs/male dom I don't understand supremacists, though I can tolerate male supremacist. LOL, hehe I don't understand people that dwell on the distant past. I don't understand hippies,extreme liberals, religious fanatics, intellectual nazis, grammar police, or quantum physics. I don't understand why genetics and biology have anything to do with it. Maybe they do, but it's not going to change anything. Does anyone really think stating genetic facts is going to make someone go "oh, okay I'm not a submissive anymore, thanks" LOL. Or oh I'm not a supremacist now. None of this means I don't accept anothers right to think that way. I do understand my wants, desires, dreams, and motivations. And really that is all that matters.

meatcleaver -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 6:35:15 AM)
I don't get overly concerned about what other people do as long as it doesn't impact on me and I don't see any injustice or exploitation involved. However, I don't think I have ever met a submissive submissive and that leaves me baffled. Subs seem more demonstrative than most people about what they want and what they are willing to accept. I remember one sub telling me in a group conversation and I hadn't even said anything to her 'Don't you dare tell me if I'm a submissive or not!' to which I answered 'The thought about YOUR submissiveness hasn't entered my head!'. The two women I play with I don't think I have ever heard them mention that they are submissive. I remain baffled.

Manawyddan -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 6:46:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer There is a fairly popular femdom model that is based on denying a male some or all of his masculinity, punishing or negating or denying his sexuality, sissifying him, etc. What I find interesting is that this is far more typically a male fantasy than a female one, though that's not to say that some women don't find it appealing also. More commonly it will be the man who specifically requests that type of fantasy, and the woman will say that she feels more comfortable if her partner remains "more of a man" even if she is the dominant one in the relationship. I am equally baffled by this. I actually don't have any problem with transexuals or transvestites, but because I don't see females as 'intrinsically' submissive, I don't understand the mental mechanics in the association of feminisation with submission. I am also those who don't understand people who won't eat sushi, or who are excessively politically conservative.

SenseofBelonging -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 7:08:42 AM)
im not at all sure that gender plays any role at all in D/s. all the submissives i know, whether male or female, simply have a need to serve...to be controlled...to be cared for (even punishment is a form of caring, if One didn't care, She wouldn't bother to punish). i am submissive...i am also very masculine. one has little to do with the other.

Chaingang -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 7:53:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin For me, I have the hardest time relating to the concepts of female Dommes and male submissives. These roles are in such direct contradiction to my own personal "natural order of things" that contemplating them is a bit like seeing water run uphill. Same here. It just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand? Everyone has the right to be left alone. If what they are doing doesn't harm you, what does it matter what they may do? Friendship is just a matter of mutual interests - so if there is enough to work with then friendship is certainly possible. You don't have to agree on everything. As a matter of fact, it's possible to have friendships with people with whom you never agree on anything - I'd expect some good natured banter to be part of such a situation though. I don't make a point of listing out what I might think of as other people's faults. I can't see the point and it's at least a little disrespectful. I have a friend that sometimes provides me with too much information about her life, and I tell her so. It's not strictly a matter of not understanding or agreeing with her choices, but that stuff is bound up in there also. I don't care what she does in her personal life, but I don't have to listen to it either. And it's not as if we couldn't talk about something else anyway.

KnightofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 9:34:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble If one 'couldn't care less' then what would be the purpose of ever asking a question outside ones field of interest/desires? I would think, in theory, that if one is interested in 'personal growth' than anything and everything could fall under the broadest definition of 'interest' because you never know what may bring personal growth to you. To appreciate another's desires and interests. And as you know ... such appreciation could develop into a personal desire or maybe not. Either way when such desire/interest occurs, It would motivated me to understand it for myself. Time is short... I don't have time to spend trying to understand something that does interest me... why would I spend that time on trying to understand something that doesn't interest me. Instead, I will use some time to appreciate... appreciatation takes alot less of my time than trying to understand an interest!

feastie -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 9:43:45 AM)
Watch my Master mow the lawn? Sheesh, I was mowing the lawn when I was 7 months pregnant. Of course, my hten husband wasn't my Master, he was just your average, beer guzzling lazy bum. Seriously, I see that there are very real and broad differences between the submissive male and submissive female, as well as the dominant male and dominant female. There are plenty of things that people do that I am not interested in, not interested in attempting, not really interested in knowing, if you'd like the truth...and that's ok. I can still be friends with them. I won't understand everything about them, but I can still be friends with them.

ZenDragoness -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 10:27:02 AM)
LuckyAlbatross quote: The key isn't what you choose- the key is whether you give others the respect of their own choices. Your sentence is the core of my attitude concerning this topic, i could not agree more. And respect is something that it not an outward behaviour, but comes from deep within the personality in the way i understand and try to practice it.

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