RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things...

RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 10:52:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 What I really don't get are the no limit slaves. Yes, I know that's in another thread and I don't mean to bring it here, but when I am sceptical of them, I get all kinds of grief. I mean, come on! Everyone has some limit. The key is to find the One(s) you are compatible with. Then the whoel "no limit" thing is a moot point. Agreed, bandit. There are always limits. Level

ownedgirlie -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 10:56:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 What I really don't get are the no limit slaves. Yes, I know that's in another thread and I don't mean to bring it here, but when I am sceptical of them, I get all kinds of grief. I mean, come on! Everyone has some limit. The key is to find the One(s) you are compatible with. Then the whoel "no limit" thing is a moot point. Agreed, bandit. There are always limits. Level ~ chuckles ~ We can have this debate again, but I would suggest we have it on the threads about No Limits :)

nicolerose -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 11:13:12 AM)
Erin you said it yourself. Men are superior in some ways, and therefore it is the natural order for them to be dominant, but you also said that "just as we women have areas in which we exceed their capabilities." So we are superior also. So it is also the natural order for females to be dominant. Or at least that's one way of looking at it. i mostly don't worry about other people's arrangments, it's not mine to "get" so i dont' have to get it, i just have to respect it. :)

perverseangelic -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 11:13:49 AM)
I'm not gonna throw my thoughts in on the "natural order" thing. I pretty much will stick to not getting it. What I -really- don't get however, is heterosexuals and homosexuals. I simply can't get my brain around how someone can be attracted to only -one- gender/sex. I mean, I know it exists, and I wouldn't try to argue to someone that they -really- are bi/pan/omnisexual, but I simply don't -get- it. Ah well. :) I maintain that I won in the sexual orientation lottery.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 11:20:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic I maintain that I won in the sexual orientation lottery. I completely and totally agree with you!!! There are times I really wish I was bi. There is this really hot gay slave in Washington (I think) who writes to me every once in a while. He is really a beautiful boy, but I just have no sexual attraction to him what-so-ever. Part of me wants to meet him and have him serve me (in a non-sexual way) just so I can dominate the man. Yet another part of me feels it would be unfair to him, and ultimately unsatisfying to us both. If only I could enjoy getting head from a man...but it just doesn't work for me. Bisexuals, consider yourselves lucky, indeed! Taggard

Level -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 1:22:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 What I really don't get are the no limit slaves. Yes, I know that's in another thread and I don't mean to bring it here, but when I am sceptical of them, I get all kinds of grief. I mean, come on! Everyone has some limit. The key is to find the One(s) you are compatible with. Then the whoel "no limit" thing is a moot point. Agreed, bandit. There are always limits. Level ~ chuckles ~ We can have this debate again, but I would suggest we have it on the threads about No Limits :) *puts thumb on end of nose and wiggles other fingers*

theRose4U -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 7:37:00 PM)
quote: In the animal kingdom, the wolves of a hunting pack willingly submit to a competent alpha female who has more seasons as a hunter or keener senses that let her lead them more often to a successful hunt and away from danger. If a wolf became rabid and insane, no longer bound by the social structure of the pack, a male beta wolf might be able to physically defeat a female alpha. But if he does not have the qualities that make a competent pack leader, if she has a good enough track record of leadership, the rest of the pack won't let him. The alpha wolf feels a keen sense of responsibility to competently lead and care for the pack, and the pack knows this and accepts the alpha's dominance whether the alpha is male or female. Female alphas who are more dominant in the pack than their mates are less common than male alphas in most of the pack hunting species, but they do exist. Females actually run wolf packs and are the most highly prized. Apparently something in the animal world about breeders. Lionesses, Hyenas are the same way. The females hunt and alpha female eats first, then feed their young, then their alpha male then the rest of the females and down the chain of command ending in sub adults. Personally I think the idea of male as head of the family is a christian american ideal that has been hammered into our heads...think promise keepers. Depending on where the OP was raised this is firmly engrained into female thinking from childhood. The narrowmindedness may just be a lack of opportunities to see successful relationships that work where this is not the case. Unfortunately in gorean circles you don't normally see the slave girls being taught anything but what the op brings up here...unfortunate but common. In Spanish and Italian societies and especially catholic families you will see a more matriarchical structure. Dad's the head of the household but the one in charge who has the final say is mom. Dommes are an extension of this type of arrangement. How much "power" sub boys are allowed to maintain to the nillas differs from relationship to relationship. Men that I work with meet my boys and will tell me that it's complete BS that I have final say on decisions. What they believe is what their narrow minds allow them to believe...only my boys need to fully understand where the buck stops. I personally get a thrill from having boys in my service that are high ranking executives, intellectuals and those that from the outside view are the man in control. The exact men that the op would find dreamy dom on the end of my leash is a prime example of the choices that we all make in this lifestyle that are seperate from our outward conditioning.

theRose4U -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 7:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize Any belief system which holds to one 'natural order' does not take into consideration the people for whom it is not natural at all. That, in my opinion, is the only issue which needs to be understood. I would agree with this completely. Those with the thoughts of "natural order" to me seem to be the ones that most frequently need help when they find themselves in the mental quicksand that this type of thinking promotes. "Wait I encountered a thought outside my pretty box...seek it out and kill it" Oh wait alpha dom decided he was going to violate my trust, my limits and my devotion to him but he's my master so I must submit. [:'(] Will someone now please take what's left and get me outta here? [:@]

mistoferin -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 8:38:53 PM)
Well first of all...we're not wolves.... quote: Personally I think the idea of male as head of the family is a christian american ideal that has been hammered into our heads...think promise keepers. Depending on where the OP was raised this is firmly engrained into female thinking from childhood. The narrowmindedness may just be a lack of opportunities to see successful relationships that work where this is not the case. I would have to disagree. I was raised in New York City. Yes it was in a Christian home....Catholic to be exact. It was far from a matriarchal environment however. Nor was that the case in any of the other Catholic homes my friends and family...homes of the Irish...the Italians...the Germans...the Puerto Ricans...the Polish, most of whom by the way were first or second generation and ran their homes as was customary in their respective homelands. Growing up in a melting pot of cultures such as New York City, it is just beyond me how I could have come out of it so narrowminded [;)]. quote: I personally get a thrill from having boys in my service that are high ranking executives, intellectuals and those that from the outside view are the man in control. The exact men that the op would find dreamy dom on the end of my leash is a prime example of the choices that we all make in this lifestyle that are seperate from our outward conditioning. Actually, I think that I made it fairly clear in my OP that the thought of any man at the end of a leash that is held by a woman is exactly a prime example of what I just can't relate to.

Kedikat -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 8:58:48 PM)
Contradictions? I should hope so. Anyone so one dimensional as to have no conflicts and confusion in this world, is as good as nonexistant. One would be boring and bored, to death. There may be an almost perfect match to a person, out there somewhere. But even that does not define them. Merely compliments them.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 9:50:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo You want complete honesty here? Ok. I frankly do not get the need for male dominant/female submissive in BDSM. That's pretty much the traditional model of het relationships so I don't see how it is different from vanilla arrangements. EXCEPT for consent. On the "natural" side of the question, to me the female because she is the mother of humanity is naturally held in higher esteem than the male who can do his bit in intercourse and go on his merry way. I can't imagine giving a child born from a female body the name from a male who may or may not be a biological parent after all. I think the only natural human relationship is that between mother and child -- natural does not always been best or healthy unfortunately. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Very well said... TammyJo has covered my thoughts on this much better than I would've expressed. I respect everyone's choices, but woman in submissive role feels unnatural to me, though fully understanding that many women find that is a good way to keep the peace in vanilla relationships because that is how we've been socialized. I have always seen D/s dynamics in relationships (with most women doing the controlling behind the scenes or in a manipulative manner), just never knew that is what it's called. M

Kedikat -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 10:10:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo You want complete honesty here? Ok. I frankly do not get the need for male dominant/female submissive in BDSM. That's pretty much the traditional model of het relationships so I don't see how it is different from vanilla arrangements. EXCEPT for consent. On the "natural" side of the question, to me the female because she is the mother of humanity is naturally held in higher esteem than the male who can do his bit in intercourse and go on his merry way. I can't imagine giving a child born from a female body the name from a male who may or may not be a biological parent after all. I think the only natural human relationship is that between mother and child -- natural does not always been best or healthy unfortunately. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Very well said... TammyJo has covered my thoughts on this much better than I would've expressed. I respect everyone's choices, but woman in submissive role feels unnatural to me, though fully understanding that many women find that is a good way to keep the peace in vanilla relationships because that is how we've been socialized. I have always seen D/s dynamics in relationships (with most women doing the controlling behind the scenes or in a manipulative manner), just never knew that is what it's called. M Go on his merry way....... Consider the role that most of nature casts the male in. And it is not the merry way. Intense competition. Ridiculous exents to display prowess. Battles. Physically, the male is designed to attempt as many impregnations as possible, and the female is designed to produce a select few offspring. The roles are both set out in some physical constraints, and eventually the way any species adapts in it's nitch. BUT. We can choose vastly different ways of living, and still surviving. There is nothing inherently superior to either sex as far as the species homo sapiens goes. It is a symbiotic relationship on the biological level. We have advanced to where it is anything we desire, on other levels.

Rumtiger -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 10:19:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U In Spanish and Italian societies and especially catholic families you will see a more matriarchical structure. Dad's the head of the household but the one in charge who has the final say is mom. Dommes are an extension of this type of arrangement. How much "power" sub boys are allowed to maintain to the nillas differs from relationship to relationship. Men that I work with meet my boys and will tell me that it's complete BS that I have final say on decisions. What they believe is what their narrow minds allow them to believe...only my boys need to fully understand where the buck stops. I personally get a thrill from having boys in my service that are high ranking executives, intellectuals and those that from the outside view are the man in control. The exact men that the op would find dreamy dom on the end of my leash is a prime example of the choices that we all make in this lifestyle that are seperate from our outward conditioning. Being a Spainish Italiano male you couldent be more right. How many other guys will actually drive to another state just to spend time with thier mothers for a day before driving right back, a total of 8 solid hours on the road within a 24 hour period. Ones that where raised by Amazon women who can kick thier ass thats who. lol. And besides, another perk of Spainish italian motherhood...the sauce.

MasterRobsalayna -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/13/2006 10:32:42 PM)
Erin - excellent post and i have been very impressed with the thoughtful and respectful answers you have received. i am with you, i "don't get" the male sub/female Domme dynamic, but i certainly respect it, as i respect everyone's choices in this lifestyle as long as i am not criticized for mine. Life is too short to be looking at others' stuff anyway, mine is enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life! i hope you are getting the feedback you were looking for. Thanks for the topic.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 10:53:04 PM)
Okay perhaps I should have cut out the merry way thing for you, but it would seem we are agreeing on everything else. You need to read the boys on other threads who say all men want is sex, and anything else is just embelishment to humor women. M

Reflectivesoul -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/13/2006 11:49:36 PM)
I am rather suprised to not see a bunch of the male subs jumping on this one.... Fisrt let me start by saying that just because a male is submissive that does not make him any less of a man. There is nothing more gratifying to me than watching a male that serves me, not only in his form and grace but knowing the power that he yeilds being just what he is, a man. I think that it is too often that the femdom role is so misundestood, which in my oppinion stems from (a slight uhhhh bantering between two of the fellow posters and something that was brought up because of it), MANY femdoms that do Dominate out of anger or a general dislike of the male gender. This has given such a bad name to a lot of the real life femdoms. True Domination does not come from a dislike of a particular gender as a whole, it comes from a want, need, desire ( however you care to word it) to claim, control, dominate another person be it a male or a female. There are vast differences between a femdom and a maledom but the similarity is the driving force behind their Dominance. In my own experiences I have found that there are more femdoms who dislike men than ones who actually like them, and its a sad gross misinterpritation of what this lifestyle is all about. Unfortunately it goes on because there are so few femdoms out there versus the number of male submissives. Ask around to the boys.... I have read several of the girls profiles here about the rotten Masters they have come across, but seriously ask the boys about some of the femdoms they have seen, its truly scary, these women are not only out to hurt and abuse a male but to get back at them as a whole and its sick. If you have an issue with the male gender leave them alone or try some therapy because not all of them are bad and deserve to be punished because one of them did something wrong. ( sorry thats just one of my soap boxes and I had to get that out of my system) The dynamics of a femdom/malesub are ones that I find completely enjoyable, being able to share a connection with a man that thinks I am not only his princess to protect but his queen to adore and serve is something that is just .... mmm lol ( sorry lack of better description at the moment lol ) I find it highly appealing to watch a man crawl across the floor to me or watching the rise and fall of his chest as he's kneeling at my side, knowing that he is strong enough to accept and embrace that role when it is out of the so called norm for his gender. Also in my experiences I have found that owning a male and physically using him ( anally speaking) is something that a lot of men atleast have a curiosity about and for the male submissive it is something that makes him feel vulnerable to someone else, which deepens his submission to the dominant. Again however I feel the need to point out that this does not make him any less of a man. It also doesnt mean that I cary no respect for him either. I do think that ( and this is probably going to ruffle feathers ...) for a male submissive it does lean more to a physical thing than the relationship with a female submissive. That does not mean that the only relationships with men are physical ones it just means that I think its what initially draws them into it. I do believe that on all levels the relationships are based on a reward and punishment, trust and communication, and needs basis. Just that the needs differ between a female sub and a male one. There are a lot of basic similarities though such as the need for reassurance, acceptance, guidance, and encouragement. Those are all things that should be found within any relationship. I did like the whole lawnmowing theory and I do agree with it. I couldnt have said it any better myself honestly. The actions may be the same its just the perception of those actions that differs. This is going to sound bad but thats ok.... men are men period and are delicious to watch doing just about anything...lol Just different ways of seeing them while performing those tasks.

kyraofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/14/2006 5:46:55 AM)
I have been thinking about this thread the last couple of days and truthfully, I don't understand why someone cannot understand female dominance and male submission. However that is probably due to my own experience of being surrounded by female dominance and male submission. My family is matriarchal and while the men may not be submissive in their day to day life outside of the house, when they come home, the woman is in charge. I was raised to be this way and my first couple of serious relationships were with men who tended to be submissive. They were not lifestyle relationships because the dynamic was not specifically stated or intentionally enhanced and celebrated. I do not believe in a universal "natural order" of male dominance and female submission. The world is made up of individual people and for me to think that we should all fall into these specific categories of dominance and submission discounts the individuality of people. I do not have a difficult time understanding switches either; to me it seems perfectly natural. For me, I am more interested in celebrating our differences rather than thinking that we should all fall into specific dynamics. Knight's kyra

catize -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/14/2006 6:33:35 AM)
quote: For me, I am more interested in celebrating our differences rather than thinking that we should all fall into specific dynamics. Yes! If someone is happy with the way they are and are fulfilled in a relationship, I don't need to 'get' the why; I am simply glad for them that they have found a way of life that that makes them smile.

catize -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/14/2006 6:48:57 AM)
quote: Those with the thoughts of "natural order" to me seem to be the ones that most frequently need help when they find themselves in the mental quicksand that this type of thinking promotes. "Wait I encountered a thought outside my pretty box...seek it out and kill it" Thank you for understanding my post! There are many ways to be happy; why is it necessary for anyone but myself to 'get' whatever it is that fulfills me?

crouchingtigress -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/14/2006 7:14:38 AM)
johnny come lately to yet another thread...mabey I should change my nic?[8D] Ok well I dont get folks that dont get folks... Sounds cheeky and flippant, but honestly its not. I seem to have an a strange understanding of life the universe and everything, that makes the earth we live in sort of like a grand school. with a wondrous stage... I think we all have the power to be, do explore anything we desire, and our only limitations are our fears... Any time I see either in myself, or in others around me, limiting beliefs, intolerance, one-true-way-ism and blanket generalizations I know there is work to be done...growing to do....and I love that part of life too, because with out growing, stretching, mind expansion, we would still be eating bugs out of each others hair... "you can not go against nature, because when you do, go against nature it is part of nature too"...~love and rockets.

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