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A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 6:02:44 PM

DarkSteven

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Dominique Strauss Kahn, that is.

Just looking at his case makes me think that in Europe, status matters for a lot more than in the US, and that a man in his position could pretty much do what he wanted with a lower status woman. Soe of the comments from France seem to disbelieve that his word should be given no more weight than his accuser's.

Am I off base?

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

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Post #: 1

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 6:22:05 PM

pahunkboy

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That is interesting since IMO we in the US have strayed from the all men are created equal mode.... more like Animal Farm- of late. Some are more equal.... gasp.

His arrest has little to do with France- ( I doubt they see it that way) It has to do with the IMF - the politics of the IMF-

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 2

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 6:46:04 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Dominique Strauss Kahn, that is.

Just looking at his case makes me think that in Europe, status matters for a lot more than in the US, and that a man in his position could pretty much do what he wanted with a lower status woman. Soe of the comments from France seem to disbelieve that his word should be given no more weight than his accuser's.

Am I off base?

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

Steven, I'm a European citizen, Irish citizenship.
Firstly there's tens of thousands of people who could do that job, he's not that "exclusive." And secondly "politics" plays a huge part in who gets the job.
I don't understand how any job with a govt would be a status job. You're getting paid by the Taxpayers which makes you,...the hired help.
But yes, this guy does seem to have a sense of entitlement.
And I certainly do agree with your last statement!

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Post #: 3

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 8:17:20 PM

Brain

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Video: Dominique Strauss-Kahn (DSK) Saturday Night Live (SNL) Skit

http://www.polycapitalist.com/2011/05/video-dominique-strauss-kahn-dsk-snl.html

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 4

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 10:48:28 PM

Brain

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I guess this is the life of the opulent. Kind of like a soap opera I would not watch.

DSK's Friends May Be Trying to Pay Off Victim's Family, as Reports Come in That His DNA Was Found on Her Clothes

--Meanwhile, the New York Post is reporting that some of DSK's "friends" have "secretly contacted the accusing maid's impoverished family, offering them money to make the case go away since they can't reach her in protective custody." The family lives in a "remote village" in Guinea, where the housekeeper lived until moving to the Bronx several years ago, following her husband's death. According to the paper, "The DA's office has warned local family members not to accept calls from associates of Strauss-Kahn. Even without the maid's testimony, however, prosecutors claim they have plenty of damning evidence to prosecute Strauss-Kahn."

--Ben Stein is another windbag who was quick to blame the victim in the DSK case, asking the absurd question, "Can anyone tell me any economists who have been convicted of violent sex crimes?" (Jon Stewart was happy to oblige that request.) IPS has published an article that Stein should probably read; it notes that "high-profile guests" do, in fact, sexually harass hotel workers on a frequent basis.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/596784/dsk%27s_friends_may_be_trying_to_pay_off_victim%27s_family%2C_as_reports_come_in_that_his_dna_was_found_on_her_clothes/#paragraph3

Hotel Maids Say Sexual Harassment Is Part of the Job
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=55744

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Dominique Strauss Kahn, that is.

Just looking at his case makes me think that in Europe, status matters for a lot more than in the US, and that a man in his position could pretty much do what he wanted with a lower status woman. Soe of the comments from France seem to disbelieve that his word should be given no more weight than his accuser's.

Am I off base?

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 5

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/25/2011 11:01:47 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

Pity we don't seem to believe that people are innocent until proven guilty anymore.

K.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 6

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 1:58:10 AM

Charnegui

Posts: 1352
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Puzzled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
That is interesting since IMO we in the US have strayed from the all men are created equal mode.... more like Animal Farm- of late. Some are more equal.... gasp.
His arrest has little to do with France- ( I doubt they see it that way) It has to do with the IMF - the politics of the IMF-

Being Dutch makes me feel uncomf with this...first of all the French have to keep their reputation as the worlds best lovers standing.
Second, DSK was going to run for presidency of France, after Sarkozy.
Third: Over here we are critics, we'll listen to the story of the hotelmaid and we listen to DSK but we'll leave the truth untill the case is brought up for judgement. What irritates the most is all publicity around it. When someone is raped or harrassed by a known person, it is widely measured in the news. When it is you or I, you hardly hear anything. But..... the tendency is nowadays (in Holland) not to be that fast anymore with that sort of complaints, because some women did take advantage of it.....
Filing a complaint, just to get even with......

So, can this be the case? Just to get dollars out of it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Pity we don't seem to believe that people are innocent until proven guilty anymore.
K.

I totally agree on that..

Although my personal belief is that where there's smoke, there's a fire also.

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RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 4:04:23 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Am I off base?

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

You are off base in lumping Eurpope in as a whole, lets remember you are talking about vastly differing cultural nations. The French and Italians seem to view this way differently from the British and Irish, affairs for top officials seem to be more acceptable there. Berlesconi, and indeed Clinton, would have been forced from office over here, as a for instance.

As for being prouder of your American justice system, lets not forget the recent case of jailing juvenilles for profit.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 8

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 6:49:55 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Just remember justice is for those that can afford it, for much goes reported that never sees the light of day again, justice therefore is not a universal concept appicable to all.

But as to the chap in question, well first thought, he is French and they do have different views than us, and even the crime of passion or temporary insanity which to us would be totally different. The second is he is a high ranking politician and there that is where any idea of justice might depart, as those in positions of influence tend to influence or have influential sycophants to manipulate what people hear.

But what did strike me as odd with this situation, is that it came to light in the first place, normally the pecadillos of the wealthy and powerful tend to dissappear as compensation generally affords silence, but not in this case it seems, no one protected the guy which is the usual with high ranking members of state, so with knowledge of his plan to run for the French presidency, I cannot help but think he was dropped in it by political adversaries, as why hide past misdemeanours. and suddenly allow the latest to appear.

I am pretty sure it is not because he was in the US, for the US has it's own history of the high ranking getting a free pass, but he was dropped like a hot spud as soon as it made the news, very unusual.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 9

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 7:18:15 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

Pity we don't seem to believe that people are innocent until proven guilty anymore.

K.

First of all, Polite is right. You are hugely overgeneralising by lumping all of Europe together.
From where I am sitting (Germany) you are off base, and not just slightly either.
He would have faced justice here too.

Now, there was a lot of talk in the last days about a different mindset in France, but not being French, and being not too well versed in the realities of French life, I can not give you an opinion on that.

However, while you are proud of the US justice system when looking at this case, we are a bit consternated. Not because he was incarcerated and will be facing trial, that is just as it should be.

What made us do a double take was his treatment. Right now he is, or should be, still assumed innocent, as he is only accused, not convicted. Seeing him brought before the judge in chains, having to do the "perp walk", all televised and broadcasted is just something that is strange to us.

Personality rights are protected stronger here, there is no way that this pictures would have been allowed to be made, or if made they would have been heavily pixelated. Television cameras in the courtroom are a big no-no anyway. This modern form of running the gauntlet is just unthinkable.

We feel that this treatment of an accused, be he prominent or not, is a form of condemnation in advance of trial, something designed to destroy a life. Now, if somebody is convicted, then have at it, but until then we want the presumption of innocence to be honoured.

What has come up over his case is another, rather significant difference in our justice systems.
While it is the US prosecutions job to prosecute the defendant and prove him guilty, the job description of the German pendant is to find the truth.
Makes me rather proud of our justice system.

Edit 'cause I can never get then/than right on the first try (or second, or third...)

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 5/26/2011 7:25:00 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:01:32 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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I also find the US premise of guilty until found innocent distasteful too, and it is something that is slowly working it's way over here what with our rabid press. It comes across as tried and convicted by the hue and cry and there punished accordingly before any so called court of law determines the truth of the matter. So, say this chap is innocent, he goes free, but free to what, his life is destroyed and he will always be under suspicion by certain elements in society, the elements who believe the courts failed or were too lenient.

If you believe in justice, let justice happen, as to do anything else makes a mockery of your justice system and this parading and humiliation of the accused and by that the innocent until proven guilty on tv just makes US justice a form of entertainment and laughable to some.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 11

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:12:47 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

Pity we don't seem to believe that people are innocent until proven guilty anymore.

K.

First of all, Polite is right. You are hugely overgeneralising by lumping all of Europe together.
From where I am sitting (Germany) you are off base, and not just slightly either.
He would have faced justice here too.

Now, there was a lot of talk in the last days about a different mindset in France, but not being French, and being not too well versed in the realities of French life, I can not give you an opinion on that.

However, while you are proud of the US justice system when looking at this case, we are a bit consternated. Not because he was incarcerated and will be facing trial, that is just as it should be.

What made us do a double take was his treatment. Right now he is, or should be, still assumed innocent, as he is only accused, not convicted. Seeing him brought before the judge in chains, having to do the "perp walk", all televised and broadcasted is just something that is strange to us.

Personality rights are protected stronger here, there is no way that this pictures would have been allowed to be made, or if made they would have been heavily pixelated. Television cameras in the courtroom are a big no-no anyway. This modern form of running the gauntlet is just unthinkable.

We feel that this treatment of an accused, be he prominent or not, is a form of condemnation in advance of trial, something designed to destroy a life. Now, if somebody is convicted, then have at it, but until then we want the presumption of innocence to be honoured.

What has come up over his case is another, rather significant difference in our justice systems.
While it is the US prosecutions job to prosecute the defendant and prove him guilty, the job description of the German pendant is to find the truth.
Makes me rather proud of our justice system.

Here I am...too late

Anyhow, what she said already.

Having worked in the German justice system during my first apprenticeship and experienced afterwards live the police department for over two years (as a secretary not the police force, but it was immensily interesting) as well as being taught about the press codes at home during my 2nd apprenticeship I can only second all she said.

Considering Europe contains following countries:

■Austria
■Belgium
■Bulgaria
■Cyprus
■Czech Republic
■Denmark
■Estonia
■Finland
■France
■Germany
■Greece
■Hungary
■Ireland
■Italy
■Latvia
■Lithuania
■Luxembourg
■Malta
■Netherlands
■Poland
■Portugal
■Romania
■Slovakia
■Slovenia
■Spain
■Sweden
■United Kingdom

do you really think you can just toss them into the bin as being all the same???

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(in reply to calamitysandra)

Post #: 12

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:14:59 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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^ when the French are raving like a lunatic- from America- it seems like that IS Europa.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 13

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:15:17 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
that is slowly working it's way over here what with our rabid press.

I have to say IMO the press is way more agressive in the UK than in Germany

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 5/26/2011 8:17:45 AM >

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 14

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:19:26 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The whole thing kinda makes me proud to be an American, where we evidently believe more in equal justice than in Europe.

Pity we don't seem to believe that people are innocent until proven guilty anymore.
K.

It was good to see a very powerful man not get away with the accusation but didn't like how he was paraded around for the meja. All commentators I heard seems to accept he's guilty cept for throwing in the word "alleged" now and again.

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Post #: 15

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:47:36 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
that is slowly working it's way over here what with our rabid press.

I have to say IMO the press is way more agressive in the UK than in Germany

Yes, I do agree, the red tops that feed the common undercore especially, one in particular even influences general elections, but some of the non red tops are just as bad, the rabid tory soap box that is the mail is one to avoid. If it is I read a newspaper, which is very rarely and only if I am stuck somewhere and very bored and I have found the paper left somewhere, I will attempt to read the guardian as it appears less confrontational. But I do have problems reading large tracts of wordage.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 5/26/2011 8:48:02 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 16

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:47:36 AM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

............DSK's Friends May Be Trying to Pay Off Victim's Family, as Reports Come in That His DNA Was Found on Her Clothes

............--Ben Stein is another windbag who was quick to blame the victim in the DSK case, asking the absurd question, "Can anyone tell me any economists who have been convicted of violent sex crimes?" .............(Jon Stewart was happy to oblige that request.)

.......http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/596784/dsk%27s_friends_may_be_trying_to_pay_off_victim%27s_family%2C_as_reports_come_in_that_his_dna_was_found_on_her_clothes/#paragraph3....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Dominique Strauss Kahn, that is.

..... Some of the comments from France seem to disbelieve that his word should be given no more weight than his accuser's.

Am I off base?...

- At first it was reported that DSK said he hadn't had sex with her. Then he said it was consensual.

- His friends are trying to pay off the housekeeper's family. If he hasn't commited a crime, why would they do that?

- From reporting I heard (BBC), it seemed like some in France asked why a mere housekeeper should be believed??

- DSK will have his day in court.

(I love Jon Stewart)!

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Post #: 17

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:56:06 AM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

.....You are off base in lumping Eurpope in as a whole, lets remember you are talking about vastly differing cultural nations. The French and Italians seem to view this way differently from the British and Irish, affairs for top officials seem to be more acceptable there. Berlesconi, and indeed Clinton, would have been forced from office over here, as a for instance.

As for being prouder of your American justice system, lets not forget the recent case of jailing juvenilles for profit.

I don't agree with lumping all Europeans together.

The judge in the kids to jail for profit scandal has been charged and hopefully is in the pokey himself by now.

Our system is far from perfect, but we continually try to get it right (Like many justice systems, I'm sure). Illinois seems perversely proud of it's political corruption, but it was Governor Ryan (himself accused of something, I think!) that put aside the death penalty in IL. I think further investigation proved many death-row inmates were innocent of the crimes they were convicted for.

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Post #: 18

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 8:57:08 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
that is slowly working it's way over here what with our rabid press.

I have to say IMO the press is way more agressive in the UK than in Germany

Yes, I do agree, the red tops that feed the common undercore especially, one in particular even influences general elections, but some of the non red tops are just as bad, the rabid tory soap box that is the mail is one to avoid. If it is I read a newspaper, which is very rarely and only if I am stuck somewhere and very bored and I have found the paper left somewhere, I will attempt to read the guardian as it appears less confrontational. But I do have problems reading large tracts of wordage.

I also soon figured out not to buy papers in the UK for that reason. The one I mostly read was just the metro as they weren't as bad as many of the main papers and with being free of charge it gave me something to do whilst spending my time on public transport as well as the guardian which during job search I used to buy wednesdays due to the job market...

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 5/26/2011 8:58:32 AM >

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 19

RE: A question for Europeans about DSK. - 5/26/2011 9:07:00 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
no one protected the guy which is the usual with high ranking members of state, so with knowledge of his plan to run for the French presidency, I cannot help but think he was dropped in it by political adversaries, as why hide past misdemeanors. and suddenly allow the latest to appear.

Quite. It would be easy for opponents who knew about his sexual proclivities to arrange for a maid who would protest.

Wikipedia says about his parentage:

quote:

Strauss-Kahn's father was born to an Alsatian Jewish father and a Catholic mother from Lorraine; Strauss-Kahn's mother is from a Sephardic Jewish family in Tunisia

He has an impressive curriculum vitae. I suspect that unlike USA politicians he was simply not as aware that he might be entrapped in this way.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 20

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