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RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 12:13:50 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Do you honestly believe its any better here?

Yes... in fact, HELL YES!!!

So you found an article of a mishap. Sucks, but that's not the norm -- not by any stretch of the imagination. Compare "the norm" of weeks to get an appointment, shoddy healthcare, and rationing of medicine (see: http://blog.mises.org/4696/socialized-medicine-and-rationing/) under the guise of socialized medicine, and HELL YES it's "better here".

As to medical people striking and so forth? That's their right... THEY PAID FOR THEIR EDUCATION and have every right to seek what they believe they deserve. Granted, they may not get it... but that's beside the point, when a NURSE here makes as much as a Doctor in Germany -- which was touted earlier as being so great because they pay for medical education. It ain't better... in fact, it's WORSE -- for both the doctors, and the patients.

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Post #: 181

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 12:41:10 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
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I am a medical person. Please understand, Im not going to argue. But if you believe mistakes arent made here, that money isnt a primary concern when dealing with patients, when patient care is dictated by wallets.... I dont know what to tell you.

That story about Duke isnt the only one. Its possibly the worse in years though. People still get the wrong leg cut off. Wrong blood types are transfused... ect ect ect. They are not isolated stories. They are quite real, and occur frequently.

On a more personal note. I have an injured foot. Its had me out of work for over 7 weeks now. My orthopedic surgeon has referred me to an ankle and foot surgeon. I cant get in to see them until September. Rationing is happening now, all over. Appointment times are taking longer, all over.

quote:

when a NURSE here makes as much as a Doctor in Germany -- which was touted earlier as being so great because they pay for medical education. It ain't better... in fact, it's WORSE -- for both the doctors, and the patients.

I am one of those nurses. No one said German health care was better. I merely asked how many German Drs were trained in the US.

You based your opinion upon one article. I know nothing about the reporting practices there. Perhaps someone from Germany can chime in later today.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 182

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 12:58:18 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

http://blog.mises.org/4696/socialized-medicine-and-rationing/

The arthur... George Reisman

His web site.... http://www.capitalism.net/

His view on health care is his view. The article he wrote is definitely colored by his own view.

He published two books on the topic.

Again, someone making money on the misery of others.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 183

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:49:00 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

...if you believe mistakes arent made here, that money isnt a primary concern when dealing with patients...

1) I never stated "mistakes aren't made. I stated it's not "the norm". Big difference!!! It's not like medical facilities in the US are run like some chop shop in Tijuana. Pull a hundred examples if you like, but the US has the best medical care in the world -- not perfect, but hands-down the best. If you don't think so, then I don't know what to tell YOU, as it's obvious to most that our healthcare far superior to the rest of the world.

2) I never stated money "isn't a concern". Of course it is... just as it is with ANY business. Now, some may argue it shouldn't be a "business", and so be it if that's what they think. I don't subscibe to that thinking... and I absolutely think any form of socialized medicine completely sucks ass!!! Without fail, the private sector always does things better, faster, and cheaper than the Government does. Period. Why? Because if they don't, they don't "profit"... and there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with profit. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows the goal is not "non-profit", but SERVICE!!! As long as I get what I paid for, then I'm happy... and if someone (a doctor) gives me what I paid for, what do I care if he/she profits from that? I don't. They've made a profit providing me with a service I found value in. A win-win.

Fine and well that you have your views, but don't misrepresent mine by alleging positions I've never stated I hold.

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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Post #: 184

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 5:18:53 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Pull a hundred examples if you like, but the US has the best medical care in the world -- not perfect, but hands-down the best. If you don't think so, then I don't know what to tell YOU, as it's obvious to most that our healthcare far superior to the rest of the world.

Its not the best in the world.

The infant mortality rate correlates very strongly with, and is among the best predictors of, state failure. IMR is therefore also a useful indicator of a country's level of health or development, and is a component of the physical quality of life index.

We are number 33 and number 46 on the lists...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Cuba has a better infant mortality rate... Germany is 14 and 15.

Even our own CDC admits we are not the best in the world. Our Government admits to that.

Why change? The US has the 37th best health care system in the world

‘Best� health care in the world? Not by a long shot

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 185

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 5:33:56 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

If I buy that there will be a shortage of general practitioners, then how would I meet that? The article never addresses that, simply stating that there will be a problem and offering up a single solution. Note that the solution is predicated on two things:

1. That there are unfilled slots in med school right now.
2. That these slots are unfilled due to financial issues for the students.

The article states neither, DS. It states there is a shortage of Primacy Care Physicians because most who are in medical school prefer the bigger bucks to be found in specializing.

quote:

The article does not mention the first premise,

Because its not the premise they are working under.

quote:

and implies that the second is true with no proof.

If the second is your second, then again its not what the article is about.

quote:

If anyone remembers the Bakke case, it was a bitter fight over someone landing a coveted slot at a med school, implying that there is a shortage of med school positions, directly contradicting the first premise.

There is a limited number of med school positions, that is true.

quote:

If we have no unfilled slots in med school, then why are we proposing a solution for making it easier to fill the open slots that do not exist?

Ah, now I get where you are coming from. The slots that are limited in Med School is because those slots are limited in residency. Medicare pays for residency slots in this country and there are only so many to go around. To prevent a huge bottle neck, school openings are limited.

quote:

Moving on, if we accept that there will be a shortage, what are different ways to meet this need? Some obvious ones that come to mind, and none of which are addressed by the article, include accrediting more schools, allowing foreign doctors to transfer their license to the US (which my grandfather did from Germany in the 1930s but for some reason is not done today as far as I can see), setting up ways to use Mexican doctors' services, etc.

This is the engineering mindset: Identify problem, propose solutions, analyze solutions, pick the best one. Unfortunately, most of the normal process today is Propose solution, make up bullshit numbers to justify it, lobby for it.

In the proposed case, it would subsidize one of the wealthiest groups in the US, which is the last thing we need to do.

What the article offered was a possible solution to the shortage of Primary Doctors we have in this country... not the shortage of physicians as a whole.

Okay. In that case, the very first thing that should be done is to determine WHY specialists get paid more. Find that and fix it - no more problem.

The article seems to believe that the only reason doctors would go for higher pay is because they have student loan debt to pay off. And if they didn't, that they would have no incentive to go for the higher paid specialist positions. That's preposterous, that if they're not indebted, they will not care for money.

Finally, if there's such a big fuss that requires SOMEONE to pay, why not shift that burden onto the specialists themselves? I don't like subsidies paid for by the general taxpayer and don't want another one.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 186

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 5:36:17 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Finally, if there's such a big fuss that requires SOMEONE to pay, why not shift that burden onto the specialists themselves? I don't like subsidies paid for by the general taxpayer and don't want another one.

That is what the article is proposing.

We estimate that we can make medical school free for roughly $2.5 billion per year — about one-thousandth of what we spend on health care in the United States each year. What’s more, we can offset most if not all of the cost of medical school without the government’s help by charging doctors for specialty training.

Under today’s system, all medical students have to pay for their training, whether they plan to become pediatricians or neurosurgeons. They are then paid salaries during the crucial years of internship and residency that turn them into competent doctors. If they decide to extend their years of training to become specialists, they receive a stipend during those years, too.

But under our plan, medical school tuition, which averages $38,000 per year, would be waived. Doctors choosing training in primary care, whether they plan to go on later to specialize or not, would continue to receive the stipends they receive today. But those who want to get specialty training would have to forgo much or all of their stipends, $50,000 on average. Because there are nearly as many doctors enrolled in specialty training in the United States (about 66,000) as there are students in United States medical schools (about 67,000), the forgone stipends would cover all the tuition costs.
While this may seem like a lot to ask of future specialists, these same doctors will have paid nothing for medical school and, through their specialty training, would be virtually assured highly lucrative jobs. Today’s specialists earn a median of $325,000 per year by one estimate, 70 percent more than the $190,000 that a primary care doctor makes. (Although a large shift away from specialty training may weaken the ability of our plan to remain self-financed, the benefits would make any needed tuition subsidies well worth it.)

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/1/2011 5:38:46 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 187

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 5:57:11 AM

DarkSteven

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Joined: 5/2/2008
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Thanks for the clarification, tazzy. The proposal makes more sense now.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 188

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 9:10:10 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Thanks for the clarification, tazzy. The proposal makes more sense now.

No it doesnt. Its still asinine.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Post #: 189

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 9:22:02 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Pull a hundred examples if you like, but the US has the best medical care in the world -- not perfect, but hands-down the best. If you don't think so, then I don't know what to tell YOU, as it's obvious to most that our healthcare far superior to the rest of the world.

Its not the best in the world.

Yes it is. If you don't think so, then the next time you or anyone you know needs major medical attention, go give CUBA a shot -- then let us know how that works out for ya. That is... if you survive.

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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Post #: 190

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 9:24:49 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Pull a hundred examples if you like, but the US has the best medical care in the world -- not perfect, but hands-down the best. If you don't think so, then I don't know what to tell YOU, as it's obvious to most that our healthcare far superior to the rest of the world.

Its not the best in the world.

Yes it is. If you don't think so, then the next time you or anyone you know needs major medical attention, go give CUBA a shot -- then let us know how that works out for ya. That is... if you survive.

Dont bother. She will just spout misleading statistics on infant mortality and life expectancy that dont take into account sociological factors. US outcomes are the best in the world but she ignores that.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 191

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 12:57:21 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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The best care money can buy; The U.S. delights in its medical technology, and pays a premium for it, but studies show other countries beat us in outcomes, value.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 192

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:00:43 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

es it is. If you don't think so, then the next time you or anyone you know needs major medical attention, go give CUBA a shot -- then let us know how that works out for ya. That is... if you survive.

No, I dont think so, and the experts agree. As much as you may want to deny it, as much as you want to stomp your foot and demand you are right.... you just arent.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 193

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:02:29 PM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

es it is. If you don't think so, then the next time you or anyone you know needs major medical attention, go give CUBA a shot -- then let us know how that works out for ya. That is... if you survive.

No, I dont think so, and the experts agree. As much as you may want to deny it, as much as you want to stomp your foot and demand you are right.... you just arent.

If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Post #: 194

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:03:26 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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I dont want you to agree with me. What I want you to do is open your eyes, quit listening to the talking heads, and discover for yourself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 195

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:05:56 PM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont want you to agree with me. What I want you to do is open your eyes, quit listening to the talking heads, and discover for yourself.

My eyes are open... my "view" is simply different from your own. I'm fine with our agreeing to disagree. (shrugs)

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Post #: 196

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:16:01 PM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont want you to agree with me. What I want you to do is open your eyes, quit listening to the talking heads, and discover for yourself.

My eyes are open... my "view" is simply different from your own. I'm fine with our agreeing to disagree. (shrugs)

A couple of idiot fools, one of whom works for the O'scumbag administration, wrote an article in last weekend's NY Times about how medical school should be free in order to, according to their theory, reduce the number of medical students becoming specialists and herding more graduates into primary care. Their theory is that if medical school was free, fewer graduates would have student loans in excess of $150,000.00 and being a primary care doctor wouldn't look so bad. Sure, the doctors would make much less money in return for their free education.

What these two assholes deliberately failed to address was HOW medical school would be free. Sure, the students would receive a stipend/subsidy from the government but that money comes from.......................wait for it.........................our tax dollars.

As far as where the best medical care is, my vote is still with the U.S. I have partied in Mexico and I had to pay the Cancun Police $200.00 to not arrest a friend who snuck a whore into his room at the Grand Solaris, but I have never been sick there. However, a good friend is a dermatologist of some acclaim and he treats Canadians routinely during the course of the year. Why? Because he will treat skin cancer on a cash and carry basis. That, of course, will come to an end under O'scumbag care because if doctors get caught doing deals like those they will lose their licenses.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 197

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:18:04 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Ya know whats really funny about all this? Limbaugh went to hawaii where he said...

“Based on what happened here to me, I don’t think there’s one thing wrong with the American health care system. It is working just fine, just dandy.”

I think thats wonderful!

Hawaii health care isnt like most of the country. Hawaii requires employers to provide health care for anyone who works 20 hours or more a week and has a 90% coverage rate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html

Its an interesting article.

But, you are right. Its best to agree to disagree. The rest of us have hashed this out on the boards before.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 198

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:19:23 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

A couple of idiot fools, one of whom works for the O'scumbag administration, wrote an article in last weekend's NY Times about how medical school should be free in order to, according to their theory, reduce the number of medical students becoming specialists and herding more graduates into primary care. Their theory is that if medical school was free, fewer graduates would have student loans in excess of $150,000.00 and being a primary care doctor wouldn't look so bad. Sure, the doctors would make much less money in return for their free education.

What these two assholes deliberately failed to address was HOW medical school would be free. Sure, the students would receive a stipend/subsidy from the government but that money comes from.......................wait for it.........................our tax dollars.

As far as where the best medical care is, my vote is still with the U.S. I have partied in Mexico and I had to pay the Cancun Police $200.00 to not arrest a friend who snuck a whore into his room at the Grand Solaris, but I have never been sick there. However, a good friend is a dermatologist of some acclaim and he treats Canadians routinely during the course of the year. Why? Because he will treat skin cancer on a cash and carry basis. That, of course, will come to an end under O'scumbag care because if doctors get caught doing deals like those they will lose their licenses.

Your nose is growing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 199

RE: Free College. - 6/1/2011 1:26:01 PM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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I guess you didn't/don't read the NY Times. I don't either because it has become such a liberal rag of a paper. But...sadly...yes, THAT article was in the paper. So pffffffffffffffffffft!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 200

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