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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:48:41 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
but if prospective students don't have the brains and drive to clear the financial hurdle at the gate, how many classroom seats are we going to be clogging with those who don't have what it takes to finish anyway?


Germany is also one of the countries where studying is close to free of charge (it was free of charge until approx. 5 years ago where a low fee was installed from just 1000 euro per year) and quite frankly I never had a reason to complain about the service I received from the docs back home...


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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:48:48 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The insurance and law industry takes a huge chuck out of actual care.   It is top heavy in the US.


Yes, I know that, but after taking that into consideration, who would become a Doctor if you still didnt make a good living (after expenses)?

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:49:49 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I believe that post High School education should be available to any that wish to take advantage of it. A better educated society, makes a better society. As some have stated "something given has no value", but in fact completion of the degree is where the real hard work comes in. I believe this should be done for vocational and professional areas. I would say at least 2 to 4 years beyond high school, and then incentive programs for higher degrees in areas that are needed more.

Education can solve so many problems, but until we can at least get the basics done right through grade 12, I do not see how a national program beyond high school can be successful. We already have many high school graduates that need remedial courses to catch up with college courses.

Our education system in it's entirety needs to be revamped.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:50:50 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.



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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 8:54:43 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Germany is also one of the countries where studying is close to free of charge (it was free of charge until approx. 5 years ago where a low fee was installed from just 1000 euro per year) and quite frankly I never had a reason to complain about the service I received from the docs back home...



Ok, but is ALL education free, or is it free just for Doctors? If it is free for all education then those people that would make good Doctors gravitate into that field. If it is free just to become a Doctor, then people that should be in other fields would also gravitate to being a Doctor. I mean, does one want someone that should be an accountant or lawyer operating on you? I dunno...

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:01:16 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.




Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:04:44 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Germany is also one of the countries where studying is close to free of charge (it was free of charge until approx. 5 years ago where a low fee was installed from just 1000 euro per year) and quite frankly I never had a reason to complain about the service I received from the docs back home...



Ok, but is ALL education free, or is it free just for Doctors? If it is free for all education then those people that would make good Doctors gravitate into that field. If it is free just to become a Doctor, then people that should be in other fields would also gravitate to being a Doctor. I mean, does one want someone that should be an accountant or lawyer operating on you? I dunno...


All education is free (or at least was until that low fee at uni has been introduced) which is why some demos did happen against the university fees as it has been seen as being against the "Grundgesetz" (sort of basic law in Germany) to dare to charge students.

My brother studied sports and mechanics/engineering (something like that) as combination and wasted about 10 years at uni in an (as far as I know) 3 years course. If he would have had to pay what my fees were in the UK he would have hurried up to get his course done

Anyhow, Article 7, which can be found in here states:

quote:

Article 7 [School education[
(1) The entire school system shall be under the supervision of the state.

(2) Parents and guardians shall have the right to decide whether children shall receive religious instruction.

(3) Religious instruction shall form part of the regular curriculum in state schools, with the exception of non-denominational schools. Without prejudice to the state’s right of supervision, religious instruction shall be given in accordance with the tenets of the religious community concerned. Teachers may not be obliged against their will to give religious instruction.

(4) The right to establish private schools shall be guaranteed. Private schools that serve as alternatives to state schools shall require the approval of the State and shall be subject to the laws of the Länder. Such approval shall be given when private schools are not inferior to the state schools in terms of their educational aims, their facilities, or the professional training of their teaching staff, and when segregation of pupils according to the means of their parents will not be encouraged thereby. Approval shall be withheld if the economic and legal position of the teaching staff is not adequately assured.

(5) A private elementary school shall be approved only if the educational authority finds that it serves a special pedagogical interest or if, on the application of parents or guardians, it is to be established as a denominational or interdenominational school or as a school based on a particular philosophy and no state elementary school of that type exists in the municipality.

(6) Preparatory schools shall remain abolished.




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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:12:21 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline 		just realised that the article doesn't specifically say "free" education, but remember that because of that article it has been used at demos...however, from my first apprenticeship I do remember it is called "the right of receiving education" however, here is another link, in which it states

quote:

German schools cater to the needs of providing a good standard of basic learning to all the students. They provide for nine years of compulsory education to all children, without any discrimination. The concept of compulsory education was introduced in Germany as early as in 1659, in the state of Bavaria . In 1717, it was introduced for the first time in Prussia also. This provision protects children from all forms of social discrimination and isolation and brings about their integration across all sections of the society. This free and compulsory education is a significant aspect of German democratic set-up as it gives an equal chance to even the socially disadvantaged classes to seek knowledge.


< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 5/29/2011 9:13:07 AM >

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:20:08 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

My brother studied sports and mechanics/engineering (something like that) as combination and wasted about 10 years at uni in an (as far as I know) 3 years course. If he would have had to pay what my fees were in the UK he would have hurried up to get his course done



It sounds like your brother just wanted to be a professional student.

I went to college for 1 year (I paid for it all myself) and that was the end of it for me. I realized after that year that all college/university did was just training you to work for someone else. I can not do that, I need to work for myself. So, its hard for me to understand why people take years and years of further education (and then tens of thousands in student loans). Working for someone in a 9-5 job is a state of mind that I do not get.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:35:38 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.


You see, here is the mistake you are making... the ones that work the hardest didn't pay for it, they worked for it. In other words, those who had scholarships, grants that were dependent on a good GPA... these were the best students. I know this because I didn't pay for college, and I have a gpa in the top 3%.

Now, the students that tend to fuck off the most were the ones that had parents who paid for it. Yes, their education was paid for... but they were killing time until their real life started. These were invariably the students that came to me a few days before finals desperately trying to pull a D or an F into a C-... "can you help me by editing this paper?", (meaning rewrite it for them), "Can you help me pass this test" (which meant tell them what was probably going to be on it and using my notes)....


The kids that work at a job, get loans to pay tuition, etc etc etc, these are the ones that are getting fucked by the system. They do not have a mommy or a daddy to pay their way. They have to work (which takes time away from classes), or they take a bazillion units so they can try to graduate early and take less debt on (which makes their grades suffer). This set is trying to get out of school early, where as the kids who have parents who pay are trying to stretch it out.


If all of these kids were competing academically, the kids with the parents who pay wouldn't be taking the place of those who are actually working to get somewhere. It wouldn't have impacted my education, as I got one based on merit.... how many students could have merited it if they could focus more on learning instead of when their next shift at Starbucks starts.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 9:50:10 AM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Something given has no value, Tazzy.


There are teachers who take advantage of having their tuition covered.  In return they agree to teach in certain districts for a period of times upon  graduation.

Are you saying they are all worthless?

I've known several who are excellent examples that you are full of crap.


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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:23:58 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Something given has no value, Tazzy.


How profound Richie.

I see those philosophy classes aren't working out too well.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:25:52 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I believe that post High School education should be available to any that wish to take advantage of it. A better educated society, makes a better society. As some have stated "something given has no value", but in fact completion of the degree is where the real hard work comes in. I believe this should be done for vocational and professional areas. I would say at least 2 to 4 years beyond high school, and then incentive programs for higher degrees in areas that are needed more.

Education can solve so many problems, but until we can at least get the basics done right through grade 12, I do not see how a national program beyond high school can be successful. We already have many high school graduates that need remedial courses to catch up with college courses.

Our education system in it's entirety needs to be revamped.


Thats sort of where this article is leading. Free until you want to specialize.

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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:27:20 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.




Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.


When its mommy or daddy paying for it, is there more incentive than someone who cant afford it and earns their place through grades and hard work?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:31:24 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.




Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.


When its mommy or daddy paying for it, is there more incentive than someone who cant afford it and earns their place through grades and hard work?


Theres plenty of money available for those who cant afford it and earn their place through grades and hard work.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:32:09 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Why not free MBAs? Free BS Eng? Why not free BA Basketweaving?

Asinine proposal.


It's actually not.

An educated population would be more productive.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:32:31 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		Nothing... absolutely nothing is "free" -- somebody always pays for it.  What many fail to understand is, at some point, that "somebody" runs out of money.  Citizens are afforded the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Thus, what you do with said "right" is up to you.  Nobody (including the taxpayers) owes anyone anything... period!  If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever.  I'm happy to help the helpless... not the stupid or lazy.



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RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:34:50 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

My brother studied sports and mechanics/engineering (something like that) as combination and wasted about 10 years at uni in an (as far as I know) 3 years course. If he would have had to pay what my fees were in the UK he would have hurried up to get his course done



It sounds like your brother just wanted to be a professional student.



Seems in that respect he followed into the footsteps from one of our cousins

But it felt the same way for me considering I completed 2 apprenticeships and my degree during the time he took for one degree...when I started uni in the UK I told my mum "I will have my degree before my brother"...but then he finished it soon after I started...gosh that would have been fun for me if he would have continued to take his time

According to mum my brother was recently astonished that my salary (I accepted a post in my 2nd apprenticeship profession I have and not really in my degree - though the degree sort of enhances my 2nd apprenticeship as it is the next level upwards in my career) is in his salary range....jeeeesh, time for him to get off his high horse, I wasn't sitting at home doing nuffin all those years what did he expect I would deserve to earn

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:35:28 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Theres plenty of money available for those who cant afford it and earn their place through grades and hard work.


Okay, time to come out of conservative fantasy land and face reality.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Free College. - 5/29/2011 10:37:09 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Something given has no value, Tazzy.


How profound Richie.

I see those philosophy classes aren't working out too well.



I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right. The value to this education is the grades... you still have to pass... is the clinicals... there is no way to fake knowledge in medicine. When was the last time anyone went to a new Dr and asked what their GPA was, or in what percentage of their class did they graduate?

I saw nothing in the article about dumbing down training.

Medicine has a habit of eating their young. If a school has an entry to graduation rate of 50%, I would be surprised. Then there is the passing rate of the boards they take.

DarkSteven has it right, there is a limit of the number of residenby positions, established by the Medicare money given. Amazing how that program keeps creeping into the picture.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 40
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