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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 6:54:48 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

People around the bar speaking English -> Sunny translating into ASL-> Deaf man translating into KSL -> Other deaf people responding to original statement-> Deaf man translating KSL into ASL -> Sunny translating ASL into English.



That's an awesome story

I meant in this country, hence "A"SL, lol.  I understand there are other sign languages based on other countries.  My point was, if you have an audience that speaks a language other than your country's most commonly used language, and you want to target them for marketing, support, etc., it's probably a good idea to hire people who can communicate with them - Politics aside, in this capitalistic nation, if you want your business to thrive, you're gonna hire people who can communicate with your customers.

That said, my mother is from a non-English speaking country.  She learned English, but while she was learning, she struggled a great deal because in the 60s there wasn't a lot of sympathy for a young foreign woman in this country.  When I was really little my parents brought one of my uncles out here.  His first job was at McDonald's and they put him back in the kitchen, since he didn't speak English.  He insisted on working the counter - how else would he learn to speak English, he asked? 

I remember how much flak he & my mom got, for speaking with accents or when they didn't understand something. They were ridiculed, complained about (openly), met with a lot of impatience, and outwardly treated like they were stupid.(by the way, within a few years they both had their own companies in this country, and did quite well for themselves)  I am glad to see more languages spoken in this country, as it adds to our culture and exposes people to the novel idea that the world does not revolve around us. It's not all that uncommon for schools in other countries to teach English (my cousin is an English teacher in Spain, actually) - yet we squabble and moan when we dare to want to acknowledge other languages here.

Seems like it's time to get out of the vacuum.


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 7:02:23 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		The world is always changing, it's a fact of live.
If the language balance in the US is changing towards Spanish, you can go with the flow, learn, adapt and open up new opportunities for yourself, or you can dig in your heels, throw a temper tantrum and lose out. 
Or you could reach out and help people learn English if it is that important to you. However, that too would require learning Spanish first.


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 7:03:18 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		When I lived in miami, I was in a materials science lab. It's not exactly something where you have a lot of public contact. The new honchos at the office called a meeting and said they were considering telling everyone that they needed to gain proficiency in spanish to continue working there. i stood up and said.. "Im not doing it. if you want to fire me, do it now. this is the United States last time I looked".

They backed down because they knew that a rival company had been recruiting Me for a year and where I went, most of the clients would go.

I could see it if I was in some job with a lot of public contact but some dude that is parked behind an electron microscope and an X-Ray spectrometer? get frickin real.

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 7:05:59 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
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Status: offline 		Barak Obama in 2007 saying the "english as official language" question is a distraction:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS24s4pYY28

Other than that, I was unable to find this speech you speak of.  You can't type a url?


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 7:56:13 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

quote:

Get it straight, there is NO official language in the U.S... You are from Washington state, which not only does not have an official language, it passed a English Plus resolution back in 89. So you are completely wrong and have absolutely no basis on which to base a claim of discrimination on the State or Federal level.


Obviously, you missed our Presidents speech, in which he declared English this countries language and strongly urged EVERYONE to learn it.   Thats ok, I understand not everyone listens when he speaks.

We live in WA state, that part is true.   We also reside in a largely agriculture area, meaning lots of migrant workers.  This doesn't change the fact that people who reside in this country should make the effort to speak English.  When I lived in CA, I witnessed the government forms and documents go from English, to English/Spanish, then they morphed into English/Spanish/Chinese/and Korean.   You may agree with this, I don't happen to.  My choice.

I also don't believe in free health care, or benefits from this country for illegal immigrants, but that is another topic.  You want to live here and make a better life for your family?  Great, thats what this country was founded on.  But learn the language and don't expect hand outs.

I tried to post a link, but it wouldn't take, regarding the Obama speech I referenced.  You can find it easily enough on Google. 






Wow, you know I don't get you, you make it sound like speaking a 2nd language is something really weird and that is pushed on people by evil illegal immigrants. It's such a strange concept for me to grasp as in Europe a 2nd language is mandatory in any education, the only way to not at least have the basics of a 2nd language is special eds, so any job anybody applies for, if they don't at least list a 2nd language, you're not going anywhere but a very basic blue collar job or a job that has "How may I help you today - for here or to go?" programmed into your speech.


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(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 8:03:10 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
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Status: offline 		Today I signed the form for Oldest 3rd language choice. Which is mandatory at grade 6 in NRW if you are going to a Gymnasium. 

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 8:06:17 AM   
gungadin09


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Status: offline 		As far as i know, Congress, and not the President, has to declare the official language. If i remember correctly, a proposition is drafted every year but has never garnered enough signatures to become a bill.

Even if English were the official language of the federal government, or of a particular state, i still don't think that would criminalize a company's selection of only bilingual employees.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 6/1/2011 8:11:29 AM >

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 8:10:03 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Today I signed the form for Oldest 3rd language choice. Which is mandatory at grade 6 in NRW if you are going to a Gymnasium. 


That's Gymnasium, but even the most basic 9 years usually have 1 other foreign language at least, been a while since I went to school, English and French were mandatory and then you had the choice between an economic science and/or another language, if you took both you could forgo physics or chemistry, boy was I glad to forgo damned physics...

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 8:28:47 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

No mention of it being required or even desired in the ad. Not to mention the dozens that ARE listed as bilingual only...isn't that discrimination?


I HIGHLY doubt it. If they can refuse to look at your resume altogether, they can certainly use lawful discrimination to weed out those who lack the qualifications that or can almost proudly declare they will not even view the resumes of those who are unemployed, telling you after the fact that they had an undisclosed criteria not relating to age, gender, ethnicity, race, religion or sexual orientation... The most you can really do is complain about the inconvenience. However, a better tact might have be to say "No, but if you work with me, I will move mountains to become functional in that language".
    The only possible exception to the above is POSSIBLY if it were a government job and the listing could be proven to be deceptive. That MIGHT have legal traction.



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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 10:53:41 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
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From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		When my grandparents came over from Norway around the turn of the 19th century, they didn't speak English. They never bothered to learn it since they stayed around other Norwegian immigrants & it wasn't required for their jobs. They worked with & for other Norwegians. Then my mother went to school, not knowing a word of English. She was teased by the other children so unmercifully that she came home & told them that there would only be English spoken in the house from then on. If you knew my mother, you'd understand how a 5-year-old could dictate something like that. LOL

By the time that I was born, my mother & her siblings had lost all their Norwegian completely. I didn't even know that my grandparents spoke with accents until I was about 8 & I was staying with them & the girl from across the street asked me why Granny talked so funny. Only on occasion would I ever hear Granny & Grandpa speaking Norwegian to each other & they did get a Norwegian language newspaper each week that fascinated me. But it never occurred to me to ask Granny to teach me Norwegian. And I think that is sad.

In the early 1980's I worked in a hospital in Seattle, WA. We had a step-down CCU on my floor. One day a Chinese woman was admitted with chest pain & she spoke no English. She had been on a tour of the city with a group of older Chinese women & they had an interpreter with them. I was speaking with the interpreter & I asked him if they were all from the same part of China. He gave a laugh & said, "No. They were all born in San Francisco!" You see, in Chinatown in San Francisco, there are people whose families have been here for generations & have never had the need to learn English. They stay in their own community, go to Chinese school there, Chinese churches, frequent Chinese businesses, etc.

I wonder if you would require them to learn English, OP?

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 11:43:33 AM   
AlwaysLisa


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From: Washington State
Status: offline 		I'm trying this again, for some reason the "embed" or "link" function isn't working on my computer.

I have listed two videos, one is a short piece regarding his immigration reform policy.  Now, where this gets confusing, is if you watch him during the campaign, where he stated people should teach their children Spanish.  He's not my favorite politician, reminds me of Clinton with his flipping and flopping.  Anyway...the fact remains that he is advocating immigrants speak English in his reform speech.   Thats all I am saying.   If you live in a country, speak the language.  I'm old enough to have grand parents from Europe.  I understand the struggles, lived through them.   One thing my grandparents never did, was give up trying to learn English because they expected everyone else to conform to their language.  

I think it's great for kids to learn several languages, that was not my bone of contention.  Just have English be one of them.

Everyone who lives here, should have either mastered the English language, or be in the process of achieving that goal.  Speak whatever you want at home, with friends, heck, be multi lingual for all I care, what I don't agree with are those who expect, even demand, that others make the effort to speak other then English.  It should still be our primary language.  

If that were to happen, business would no longer require bi lingual's to communicate with their customer base.  

These are my thoughts, and it's ok to disagree  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DEoOdcYKbc       ** This is a short piece, the longer one is over 30 min and still giving me trouble to add here **


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 11:47:58 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

If that were to happen, business would no longer require bi lingual's to communicate with their customer base.  


You're assuming their only customer base would be in the US. And if I'm running a business, I'm goingto cater to my customers, no matter what languages they speak.

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 12:43:21 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa
Everyone who lives here, should have either mastered the English language, or be in the process of achieving that goal.  Speak whatever you want at home, with friends, heck, be multi lingual for all I care, what I don't agree with are those who expect, even demand, that others make the effort to speak other then English.  It should still be our primary language.  

If that were to happen, business would no longer require bi lingual's to communicate with their customer base.  


I think you are wrong on that.
Even if they all would learn English, they might still be more comfortable in their mother language.
A business that would cater to that, by hiring bilingual staff, could gain quite an edge over the competition. 

Changing demographics are a reality.
The segment of people in the US with Spanish as their primary language is large enough to make it a sound business decision to hire bilingual staff. That is not going change, as much as you might want it to.
You can either adapt, or lose out. 
Right now it mostly sounds like you are whining.


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 12:52:31 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
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From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		I agree with Sandra. Change is difficult & you're asking thousands of other people to do the changing so that you don't have to. You do see that, don't you?

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 3:28:32 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

If she were in a state that did officially declare English as it's language, would that make it any more discriminatory to hire only bilingual employees?
No, but she would at least have a semblance of a beginning of a smidgen of a reason to complain.

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 3:41:08 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
Or you could reach out and help people learn English if it is that important to you. However, that too would require learning Spanish first.



Another common misunderstanding.
You do NOT need to learn another language to teach one - in fact it is often a hindrance to know their language. They use it as a crutch. I've been teaching for over 2 years in Korea and can count the number of words / phrases I know. I joke and say I only know about 10 but really I know about 20. I can't even count to ten.
I have taught people of at least 8 languages without knowing their own.

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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 3:42:28 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Obviously, you missed our Presidents speech, in which he declared English this countries language and strongly urged EVERYONE to learn it.
And I guess you missed the part where I said there is no official language in the U.S. Obama can say Swahili is the language of the U.S., but that wouldn't change a thing. There is no de jure official language in the U.S. None. All languages are equal before the law.

You may not like the idea of other people speaking their own languages, but guess what? The law of the land, and specifically the law of your state give them that right, and protect that right from bigoted people like you. And yes, you are a bigot. You automatically equate speaking Spanish with being an illegal immigrant.

You feel that having government forms available in a language that you do not speak is somehow wrong? Why is this? Why does it even matter to you what languages are on the form? You can read the English parts, why is it somehow wrong to insure that others can also read the forms?

The answer?... Because you are a bigot and you just plain don't like dirty furners cluttering up your pretty little make believe America.


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 6:19:24 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


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Status: offline 		I was raised French Canadian and was speaking English by the time I was 4.  Not  very well mind you, but I learned.  And now I'm perfectly bilingual, I even remember some of my high school Spanish.  When I worked one job, the company I worked for closed the manufacturing plant, the only one, in Canada.  Everything was then sent to Mexico.  Having to translate something one day for a Mexican counterpart, I went home, got my English-Spanish dictionary and did the best I could.  The vice-president was impressed that I'd made such an effort so that our request could go through.  The gentleman in Mexico was also impressed that I'd tried so hard to communicate to him in his language.  It may have been somehow primitive, but the information was passed on in a timely manner and understood.

I don't expect everyone in this country to speak both languages, I still have relatives, younger than myself, who still can't speak English, only French.  And others who speak nothing but English.  I consider myself lucky that I am bilingual and can make myself understood somewhat in Spanish, at least I try and I'm given an A for effort.




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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/1/2011 10:04:54 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Has anyone else gone for a job, had the interview go exceedingly well, then, after all is said and done, they ask if your bilingual?   No mention of it being required or even desired in the ad.  Not to mention the dozens that ARE listed as bilingual only...isn't that discrimination? 

Obama included the fact that we all need to speak one language in several of his speeches, yet.....here I am, over fifty years old and starting a Rosetta Stone course, so I can get a job in my own country.   Rosetta Stone doesn't work for free either!  

Ok, my mini-rant is over.  *curtsies*

Lisa





Businesses are going to have a hard time finding bilingual workers. College students are now being advised to get bachelor of science degrees and many are told graduates with bachelor of arts degrees (which require learning foreign languages) can't find decent jobs.


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RE: I didn't need a passport to get here...... - 6/2/2011 10:10:57 AM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
Or you could reach out and help people learn English if it is that important to you. However, that too would require learning Spanish first.



Another common misunderstanding.
You do NOT need to learn another language to teach one - in fact it is often a hindrance to know their language. They use it as a crutch. I've been teaching for over 2 years in Korea and can count the number of words / phrases I know. I joke and say I only know about 10 but really I know about 20. I can't even count to ten.
I have taught people of at least 8 languages without knowing their own.


I know that it is not necessary to learn the primary language of the people you want to teach, what I meant is, that if you want to get them to learn, you need to reach out to them, make a connection, get them to want to learn. And that is easier if you speak your language.
In your situation though, with a classroom of people who want to learn, yes, it might even be hindrance.


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(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 100
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