RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (Full Version)

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WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 6:56:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: WOTF Nearly 40,000 died in 2007 from drug related deaths, http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/736462 and you're correct most were misuse of perscription drugs. Yet we are talking bout decriminalising hard drugs so that statistic could easily change. Even if it didn't, where highly addictive hard drugs are legalised it seems fair to expect that drug consumption for non-medical considerations will still hugely increase. It'lll make da drug mortality situation far worse IMO. Bah, crafts are still domestics lol. Again it is NOT "fair to expect" results like those you argue will arise if drugs are decriminalised. They are simply not confirmed by results when drugs are decriminalised. They are negated - drug consumption has reduced in Portugal, as have adverse health outcomes (eg new HIV infections), as is reported in Scientific American here. A simple Google search is all that lies between you and this research. Please stop assuming and projecting - the facts are freely available. Learn them - then form opinions based on facts. Spreading the myths you currently and mistakenly believe to be true is not helpful to anyone. Tweak this is gettin' comical cause you didn't follow what I was sayin' or deliberately misunderstand. Da situation in Portugal is a little bit like what I said I would like to see where the focus of prosecution is on drug dealers but I think there should still be some minor illegality attached to possession of hard drugs. The lower deaths is largely due to avoidance of dirty needles and better treatment which I support. When talkin bout legalisation it is completely reasonable to suggest dat if hard drugs were legalised (not just decriminalised) and quite widely available, it would change da current situation regarding mortality, and change for the worse. Those drugs are highly addictive. Huge numbers of folks die from misuse of relatively safe but somewhat addictive perscription drugs. Dat trend would obviously worsen with the relatively easy availability of hard drugs with high addictiveness.

hot4bondage -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 6:56:04 AM)
Sorry, Moonhead. Meant to send that as a post, not a reply. Still learning my way around here...

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 7:27:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh lol aren't you a great man for da tea an' sympathy? X: "I lost my health, my career my family, friends, my home to da scourge of smack", M: "watta weak self destructive wanker!" When I did I mention smack? I was talking about cocaine, crack and amphetamine derivatives, not the heavyweight downers that actually cause a physical dependence.. We were talkin' bout hard drugs so I took it to mean them all. Cocaine and especially crack is understood to be severely psychologically addictive and da symptoms may have no difference to more physically addictive drugs.

thompsonx -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 7:31:25 AM)
quote: BTW that same ounce of coke can cost $3-400 here. It's not fair! quote: the gram of coke that cost $100 in 1983, now costs $50. Does that count? Since there are 28 grams in an ounce it would appear that blow down under is pretty cheap

thompsonx -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 8:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh The approach to drugs is an interesting discussion cause personally I think there isn't any obvious solution cept some sort of compromise. I reckon a nuanced approach is needed. States generally could be less punitive by criminalising addicts less and more mildly. Wouldn't like to see decriminalisation except for soft drugs like cannabis but da idea of legalising highly addictive drugs is pretty outlandish IMO. Folks say the War on Drugs has been lost. Maybe it has but there is no way of telling what da situation would be like with complete decriminalisation. It would probably increase serious addiction hugely. Reckon the consequences could be devastating in society especially in disadvantaged communities. Did it ever occure to you that those who do drugs will not stop because they are illegal...that those who dont will not start because drugs become legal. Ask yourself if heroin became legal tomorrow would you start slamming? If you would not then why would you suppose others would?

Moonhead -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 8:39:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hot4bondage Sorry, Moonhead. Meant to send that as a post, not a reply. Still learning my way around here... No worries. If you're concerned somebody might think you're answering them rather than talking in general, you can just stick a "Fast reply" or "FR" at the start of your post, btw.

thompsonx -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 8:40:14 AM)
quote: We were talkin' bout hard drugs so I took it to mean them all. Cocaine and especially crack is understood to be severely psychologically addictive and da symptoms may have no difference to more physically addictive drugs. The reason for the difference in the spelling of the two words psychologically and physically is that they mean two different things, for you to claim that they are the same is disingenuous at best. Perhaps you might want to acquaint yourself with the difference between the two words before you embarass yourself further. You also do not seem to recognize the difference between crack and coke...something else for you to research before you come asking for a prybar to remove your feet from your mouth.

Moonhead -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 8:47:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh We were talkin' bout hard drugs so I took it to mean them all. We weren't. The post I made that you started off arguing with, I specifically referred to cocaine and amphetamine based stimulants. quote: Cocaine and especially crack is understood to be severely psychologically addictive and da symptoms may have no difference to more physically addictive drugs. Apart from the fact that there aren't any physical consequences to speak of if you just stop taking them, of course. If you're on a couple of litres of sprits a day and just stop dead, you can die from the DTs you get after building up a tolerance like that. Withdrawal from heroin isn't half as nasty, but still pretty grim. You cut out the coke, on the other hand, you'll most likely just get a bit depressed. The thing that distinguishes cocaine and amphetamine derivatives from most class a's is that the physical damage they do is pretty nasty (just look at Flavour Flav's teeth, Phillip K Dick's pancreas or Daniella Westbrook's septum), but it's all down to stuff the drugs do when you're taking them, rather than withdrawal.

kdsub -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 8:54:43 AM)
Did it ever occur to you that children who are experimenting with life and under peer pressure may start slamming because it will be readily available? Did it ever occur to you that people hooked on a drug may start overdosing if legal. Did it ever occur to you to check out the results of the experiments with drug legalization in Europe and apply the cost, in human misery, of those results over a country with 300,000,000 people? I am not saying that changes in our drug policy are not needed but flat out legalization of all drugs is not the answer. I would like to see the penalties for importing… production…. and distribution of illegal drugs increased to life in prison or death. Those caught using would not be imprisoned but sentenced to mandatory drug rehabilitation programs. Butch

Moonhead -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Did it ever occur to you to check out the results of the experiments with drug legalization in Europe and apply the cost, in human misery, of those results over a country with 300,000,000 people? Got any citations for this alleged "human misery"? Most of the evil eurotrash legalisation experiments have worked out rather well. It's done wonders for tourism in Amsterdam, for a start...

kdsub -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:07:38 AM)
There was a thread awhile back on just this subject... I'm not going to rehash it. You can do the research if you are interested but the bottom line was more deaths... more users... and increased government costs. This was not balanced as they expected by crime reduction. There were some good points but overall it did little to decrease the problem.

thompsonx -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Did it ever occur to you that children who are experimenting with life and under peer pressure may start slamming because it will be readily available? Did it ever occure to you that it is a parents job to raise their children and not mine or yours. Did it ever occur to you that people hooked on a drug may start overdosing if legal. As if that does not happen now that drugs are illegal. Did it ever occur to you to check out the results of the experiments with drug legalization in Europe and apply the cost, in human misery, of those results over a country with 300,000,000 people? Perhaps you should then you could disabuse yourself of your ignorance and save me the trtouble. I am not saying that changes in our drug policy are not needed but flat out legalization of all drugs is not the answer. Why is it the governments business to control recreational drugs...what ever happened to the personal responsibility you are always carping about? I would like to see the penalties for importing… production…. and distribution of illegal drugs increased to life in prison or death. Why? Those caught using would not be imprisoned but sentenced to mandatory drug rehabilitation programs. For a guy who is always whinning about the "nanny state" you sure seem to be in favor of the "nanny state" sticking its nose into private, personal behavior. Butch

Moonhead -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:13:51 AM)
So you can't remember the country and the drugs involved?

mnottertail -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:26:28 AM)
Nope, the shit was THAT good.

Moonhead -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:34:46 AM)
[:D] Maybe Butch can hook me up with her supplier...

mnottertail -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 9:37:18 AM)
Think it was George Schultz, it goes a long way towards explaining the Reagan and Nixon administrations, innit?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 10:44:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh We were talkin' bout hard drugs so I took it to mean them all. We weren't. The post I made that you started off arguing with, I specifically referred to cocaine and amphetamine based stimulants. quote: Cocaine and especially crack is understood to be severely psychologically addictive and da symptoms may have no difference to more physically addictive drugs. Apart from the fact that there aren't any physical consequences to speak of if you just stop taking them, of course. If you're on a couple of litres of sprits a day and just stop dead, you can die from the DTs you get after building up a tolerance like that. Withdrawal from heroin isn't half as nasty, but still pretty grim. You cut out the coke, on the other hand, you'll most likely just get a bit depressed. The thing that distinguishes cocaine and amphetamine derivatives from most class a's is that the physical damage they do is pretty nasty (just look at Flavour Flav's teeth, Phillip K Dick's pancreas or Daniella Westbrook's septum), but it's all down to stuff the drugs do when you're taking them, rather than withdrawal. WDs from most opies are short-lived affairs, usually no more than about 3 days or so for the physical dependence to subside. Opioid dependence - Wikipedia Hell, I was going through mild WDs myself this very morning (runny nose, jittery, a bit achey over and above my normal pain level). It's what happens when you have a 30 day supply and your doc visit is 31 days out. I have heard heroin users say that WDs from tobacco are worse; me, I got off tobacco easily when I committed to being tobacco-free 12 years ago. Methadone is supposedly the worst, usually lasting for weeks if an abrupt cessation occurs. This is kinda cool: opioid withdrawal scale This is a really technical description of the opioid receptors for geeky folks like moi. http://www.opioids.com/receptors/index.html

hot4bondage -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 11:32:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Did it ever occur to you that children who are experimenting with life and under peer pressure may start slamming because it will be readily available? Did it ever occure to you that it is a parents job to raise their children and not mine or yours. Did it ever occur to you that people hooked on a drug may start overdosing if legal. As if that does not happen now that drugs are illegal. Did it ever occur to you to check out the results of the experiments with drug legalization in Europe and apply the cost, in human misery, of those results over a country with 300,000,000 people? Perhaps you should then you could disabuse yourself of your ignorance and save me the trtouble. I am not saying that changes in our drug policy are not needed but flat out legalization of all drugs is not the answer. Why is it the governments business to control recreational drugs...what ever happened to the personal responsibility you are always carping about? I would like to see the penalties for importing… production…. and distribution of illegal drugs increased to life in prison or death. Why? Those caught using would not be imprisoned but sentenced to mandatory drug rehabilitation programs. For a guy who is always whinning about the "nanny state" you sure seem to be in favor of the "nanny state" sticking its nose into private, personal behavior. Butch Yep. Social conservatives are statists. How's prohibition working in China, our main supplier of K2 spice and "bath salt?" [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] Here in the home of the brave, when a police dog sniffs around your car, it's not a search. When a cop knocks and hears your toilet flush, it's reasonable suspicion. When your property is taken during a drug raid but you're not even charged with a crime, you still have to prove that your property is "innocent" or you won't get it back. Sounds kind of crazy, huh? These are all SCOTUS decisions made within the last twenty years. Prohibition is a counter-productive fraud.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 11:55:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh We were talkin' bout hard drugs so I took it to mean them all. We weren't. The post I made that you started off arguing with, I specifically referred to cocaine and amphetamine based stimulants. Ah Moony, I think you'll find you started arguing when I was talking with someone else. I'd been talking in da context of hard drugs generally at dat point hence da misunderstandin' quote: quote: Cocaine and especially crack is understood to be severely psychologically addictive and da symptoms may have no difference to more physically addictive drugs. Apart from the fact that there aren't any physical consequences to speak of if you just stop taking them, of course. If you're on a couple of litres of sprits a day and just stop dead, you can die from the DTs you get after building up a tolerance like that. Withdrawal from heroin isn't half as nasty, but still pretty grim. You cut out the coke, on the other hand, you'll most likely just get a bit depressed. The thing that distinguishes cocaine and amphetamine derivatives from most class a's is that the physical damage they do is pretty nasty (just look at Flavour Flav's teeth, Phillip K Dick's pancreas or Daniella Westbrook's septum), but it's all down to stuff the drugs do when you're taking them, rather than withdrawal. Its true you could die from alcohol withdrawal but da example you paint of someone on several litres of spirits a day is a particularly extreme one, someone like dat could die at anytime, withdrawal or no. My point is dat coke etc. are more addictive in a shorter time than cigs or alcohol. Not physically but psychologically which mostly is no less serious. Da psychological withdrawal from cocaine is well documented as bein' far more severe than you say and has genuine physiological ramifications, some users can have heart attacks.

kdsub -> RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs (6/3/2011 12:12:07 PM)
May I ask...do you agree with Portugal's drug laws?

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