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When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/10/2011 9:59:02 PM

Sanity

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My newest neighbor has (or had) two pit bull terriers. One came on my place about two weeks ago and I shood him off.

Well, he has a friend, and the two of them came back around while I was away last Friday...

I have livestock, and now thanks to the pit bulls I have a bloodied up steer with a badly torn nose, a vicious wound in his right rear leg, and both of his ears are absolutely shredded.

I also have some fence repairs to tend to, both where the pit bulls muscled their way under my fence to get in and out of my field, and where my other cattle went over and through the fence trying to escape the attack.

I am pissed...

I was away when the attacks happened, thankfully a neighbor saw what was going on and called the sheriff. The deputys who responded didnt see the first of two attacks, which was in the morning, but they arrived in time to catch the dogs in the middle of their second attack late in the afternoon.

They said they pulled the dogs off the steer and were afraid to shoot them because there are houses in the vicinity, which is bs in my opinion, I think he just didnt want the publicity or paperwork to deal with. Anyway,they followed the dogs home, and managed to capture them there.

Good thing is I learned how to administer penicillin, and I think the steer is going to make it. Bad news is, I have yet to hear from the neighbor...

Another good thing is that these dogs found a cow to attack, and not some old woman or some poor little kid. I dont let dogs run at large, for this very reason. Many domestic dogs that people keep as pets, the large breeds especially will naturally pack up and attack whatever they encounter.

And the vicious breeds... if I see another pit bull or doberman or anything of the sort on my property, it is going to get shot. Im not fucking around with them any more.

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< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/10/2011 10:33:41 PM >

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/10/2011 10:03:31 PM

Termyn8or

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That's why we have guns.

Don't fix the fence, just wait and watch.

T^T

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/10/2011 10:07:45 PM

Sanity

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The elderly neighbor lady who called the cops said she saw the dogs after the attack and they looked up at her as she drove by them in her SUV and it chilled her to the bone to see what she called their evil grins looking up at her, with their faces and heads covered in blood the way they were, as she drove by them.

Assuming the owners saw them like that, I wonder if they wont just have the county put them down, while the county has them locked up down at the pound.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/10/2011 10:12:55 PM >

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/10/2011 10:22:37 PM

Sanity

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A couple of more pics of the same wounded animal

http://s702.photobucket.com/albums/ww24/owyheehuntr/Bloodied%20steer/

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 12:24:08 AM

MaxsBoy

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Go here if you want to find out which are the "vicious breeds". Hint: compare the scores of pit bulls vs. dachshunds.

I'm very sorry about your cows. I'm also very sorry that some idiot dog owners let their untrained dogs run wild and form semi-feral packs. Jackasses like that are the real problem.

< Message edited by MaxsBoy -- 6/11/2011 12:26:46 AM >

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 1:53:05 AM

soul2share

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I have to agree.....I'd be the one like you who'd shoot em if they ever got onto my property again. I waas thrown from, and then stomped on, by a horse that was spooked by 3 neighborhood "pet dogs" who also ran deer. Me turning the horse at them and running towards them didn't stop them in the least. After I hiked 3/4 of a mile back to the house, the poor horse was in the cemetary behind the house, and he was so scared I couldn't get near him. He'd ripped up the bridle, and I'm thankful that he didn't run out into the road....people always speed on those country roads.

I don't condone shooting animals of any kind, but if they'll do that to an animal bigger than they are, a human being wouldn't stand a chance. Your neighbor is a total asshole if he's not making arrangements to pay for the medical care for the steer.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 2:55:04 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And the vicious breeds... if I see another pit bull or doberman or anything of the sort on my property, it is going to get shot. Im not fucking around with them any more.

Sorry, but that is complete BS, calling dobies a vicious breed, had them all my life and got 2 of them now, they are the most mellow dogs you can have, everything but a vicious breed, amazingly sweet and affectionate animals, they get bullied by the cats, and not just mine, love children, they are family dogs and not a "vicious breed".

I'm sorry about your cows, but if I hear BS like a doberman is a vicious dog, I got to shake my head because usually the people who claim so have seen too much bad movies. In about 20 years and 4 dobies, there were 2 incidents where the dogs actually turned mildly vicious, one when I was attacked by a drunk ex who took a swing at me, the dog protected me and the guy had teeth marks on his neck but no bites, he just leaped at him and threw him down and then kept him on the floor, the other time was when another drunk idiot almost broke the hip of my dobie girl and kept on hurting her despite me yelling at him to stop and her growling at him and wincing in pain, the bite she finally gave him was like tiny pin pricks, police and hospital thought he was lightly nipped by a toy breed, if she would have meant business, he would have needed a new arm. Dobies are actually one of the breeds with a very low aggression potential. My cats regularly bring in wild young rabbits and let them run in the house for their amusement, the dogs catch them, lick them and defend them from the cats until I get a box where I can put the bunnies in and if they have injuries bring them to the vet.

You're dealing with an asshole of a neighbour who hasn't trained his dogs and who is a completely irresponsible dog owner, but please don't call Dobermans an aggressive breed, because they simply are not, in fact they have one of the lowest rates of biting or attacking incidents, most bites around here are caused by Jack Russels.

Again, sorry about the cow, but you couldn't be more wrong about dobies.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 3:07:22 AM

MaxsBoy

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Exactly what the Lady said, but insert "pit bull" instead of "doberman".

Oh, and the "pit" that pit bulls are named for isn't the dog fighting ring, it's the bull ring. They were bred first to fight bulls. So yes, they can be dog aggressive sometimes, especially if not trained properly, and they can have a high prey drive. But they have been bred for hundreds of years to have no aggression towards people. People are bitten much more frequently by small yapper dogs than by pits, but the pit bites make the news because pit panic is all the rage right now.

The bottom line is this: any dog can bite without warning, even the most trusted elderly golden retriever (ask me how I know that), and any dog is dangerous with the wrong handling.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 3:33:20 AM

WyldHrt

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quote:

Go here if you want to find out which are the "vicious breeds". Hint: compare the scores of pit bulls vs. dachshunds.

I'm very sorry about your cows. I'm also very sorry that some idiot dog owners let their untrained dogs run wild and form semi-feral packs. Jackasses like that are the real problem.

What MaxsBoy and LC said. I worked in pit bull rescue for many years and have handled/ trained literally hundreds of pits, rotts, dobies, and other 'vicious' breeds, many of them abandoned or abused rescues, all without incident.

Put the blame where it belongs, on the irresponsible idiot who didn't bother to train his/ her dogs and let them run loose.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 3:44:06 AM

LillyBoPeep

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i'm sorry to see what happened to your steer =(
but i have to agree with the others, this isn't a "pit bull thing" -- when i was growing up, there was a BIG pack made up of wolves someone had brought in, and feral dogs that killed TONS of livestock. there wasn't a single pit bull or doberman or rottweiler or whatever other "evil dog" from previous decades in that pack. it was all feral strays which were mostly typical "farm dog" mixes. they killed quite a few sheep and other animals and some of them were rounded up and euthanized while others were shot in the woods.
i've seen golden retrievers attack with insane ferocity. the worst animal attack of my entire life was by a cat. =p meanwhile, the pitbull i was around as a child was friendly, happy, loyal, liked to fall asleep in your lap, etc etc.

these were untrained animals whose "owner" had no responsibility for them. your neighbor needs to answer for this; since you know where the dogs came from, and since the police know where they captured the dogs, it shouldn't be that hard to get them, but dobermans and pitbulls aren't "evil dogs;" ANY dog can go bad when the person responsible lapses in responsibility. hell any THING can go bad under those circumstances. humans can, too.

tiny ankle biter dogs are some of the most vicious dogs in reality. many of these little dogs bite several people over and over again in their lifetime, but people actually ENCOURAGE the behavior because they think it's "cute" or "he's really harmless." these dogs often have the least amount of discipline because people tote them around like fashion accessories, or again because it's "cute" to see a little dog flying off the handle. people are all up in arms about pitbulls right now so that's all that you hear about, but before this is WAS dobermans, and rottweilers, and german shepherds, too, and most people are okay with these dogs now.

do some research on the history of pitbulls in America -- these dogs were the #1 family dog. they haven't changed, really, but HUMAN ATTITUDES toward them have. the rise of pitbull-based dogfighting has had a lot to do with this. when humans fail to be responsible, everyone suffers. if pit bulls are legislated out of existence, what will the next "evil dog" be? because you know there will be another one.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 4:08:56 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

tiny ankle biter dogs are some of the most vicious dogs in reality. many of these little dogs bite several people over and over again in their lifetime, but people actually ENCOURAGE the behavior because they think it's "cute" or "he's really harmless." these dogs often have the least amount of discipline because people tote them around like fashion accessories, or again because it's "cute" to see a little dog flying off the handle. people are all up in arms about pitbulls right now so that's all that you hear about, but before this is WAS dobermans, and rottweilers, and german shepherds, too, and most people are okay with these dogs now.

do some research on the history of pitbulls in America -- these dogs were the #1 family dog. they haven't changed, really, but HUMAN ATTITUDES toward them have. the rise of pitbull-based dogfighting has had a lot to do with this. when humans fail to be responsible, everyone suffers. if pit bulls are legislated out of existence, what will the next "evil dog" be? because you know there will be another one.

Ugh, those tiny dogs humans carry around are the worst, I avoid one of our local parks because it's full of these and those dogs regularly bite my dogs, if my 2 dobes then bark or growl (understandably as they are often bleeding) the idiot owners tell me I should keep them muzzled, when I point out that their mutt just has run up to one of mine and bitten it, they usually give you some claptrap like "Oh s/he's only tiny, it can't kill anybody yours are big" - yeah but mine don't bite and they obey commands... Always wants me to go "Look, I got only tiny hands, want me to chin you, can't hurt as my hands are small, or how about my feet? Size 3 1/2 would you like a boot up your arse, surely it can't hurt you as they are small!"

I don't care which type of dog people have or which size they are, essentially they all are wolf descendents and pack animals, if you can't be a pack leader and be bothered to train your dog, have a stuffed toy animal. Dogs that are aggressive usually don't recognize their human as a pack leader and try to be the pack leaders themselves. I always get annoyed with people who get animals and aren't willing to put in the work. In a lot of cases I think they should put the idiot owners down and not the dogs.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 4:18:01 AM

LillyBoPeep

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gah yes!!! i hate that!! "well she can't really hurt you, she's small!"
well so am i, but i bet if i punched you, it would hurt. =p

i was leaving my house the other day and saw a lady out with her dog with no leash on. this was a mid-sized, shaggy little retriever mix. another lady came jogging down the sidewalk, with her dog on a leash -- this was a BIG dog, looked like maybe a doberman/great dane cross. guess who attacked?

i take my dog off-leash sometimes but only because i know that he'll listen when i call him back, and he honestly doesn't go far unless i tell him "go run." i've put a lot of time into my dog's behavior and so i can trust that he will generally behave as expected. i get sick and tired of people who DON'T take that kind of time -- if you get a dog, you are 100% responsible for what that dog will become, and if you can't see yourself effectively taking up that challenge then yes, like LC said -- stick with stuffed animals.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 4:23:46 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I don't care which type of dog people have or which size they are, essentially they all are wolf descendents and pack animals, if you can't be a pack leader and be bothered to train your dog, have a stuffed toy animal. Dogs that are aggressive usually don't recognize their human as a pack leader and try to be the pack leaders themselves. I always get annoyed with people who get animals and aren't willing to put in the work. In a lot of cases I think they should put the idiot owners down and not the dogs.

This

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 5:12:02 AM

barelynangel

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I don't know what the "research" says but pits tend to make the news a lot. I found this site that shows some of the statistics and to me for a 5% ownership across the US, the percentages to me are pretty high for people to be in denial about pits. This doesn't mean i think people shouldn't OWN pits, they are beautiful and from what i understand loyal dogs. http://www.dogsbite.org/blog-dog-bite-statistics.htm i like this website also as it is a differentiation between dog homicides and dog bites. All in all, again -- knowledge of possibility is the first step in prevention -- http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/canine-homicides-the-dog-bite-epidemic-do-not-confuse-them.html - yes, i know its a lawyers site lol.

And we don't get many dog biting cases but in the 4 years i have worked at my current firm, we had a pit plaintiff case where a pitbull literally bit the nose and part of the face off of a woman when she was at her neighbors house. Our firm itself has had a couple different dog bite cases and the majority of them are about pits. We had another case where a woman had injuries pretty much it seems like the steer but they didn't get her face caused by pits.

Sanity, i would 1) make sure animal control is called because these animals now have a taste of blood and should be put down -- they know where your live stock is and will be back, 2) i would sue the owners for your vet bills etc., make sure you have a vet come look at them to note the attack on your steer and 3) property damage. I mean you have the best type of witnesses lol cops, 4) make sure there is a police report made AND a citation against the dogs. The reason i say this is because the next time these dogs could attack a person or god forbid a child. And if they do, then your past reports will help.

The home owner is responsible. Luckily for your neighbors sometimes this stuff is paid for under their homeowners insurance. Check with yours also.

I don't normally advocate suing people even though it tends to be job security for me but attacking dogs because their owners are irresponsible pisses me off.

I hate to say it but the irresponsible dog owner is the one refuses to recognize the very REAL possibility that their breed is one that has major instincts to attack or whatever its defined as. Caustion and realization and prevention are three things that make a responsible owner of these types of breeds. If you have an owner oblivious to the possible risk, that to me is when a dog is dangerous. Being in denial is not a sign of a responsible owner. I am not saying get rid of or shoot down a pit, i am saying if you own one, don't make excuses for the breed, simply be aware and recognize the breed has a very real tendency to be vicious. Doesn't mean your dog will be, it means by being aware, you may actually prevent your dog from becoming one in the statistics.

Sanity, i hope your animals are okay. I am editing this to ad when i speak of an owner knowing the breed, i speak of any breed. I am not one for regulating or getting rid of pits, but as an owner, you should be aware and acknowlege the statitstics as any breed owner should. Knowledge is the first power of prevention for any breed owner.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/11/2011 5:26:28 AM >

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 5:55:48 AM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
tiny ankle biter dogs are some of the most vicious dogs in reality.

True. Locally we've had a rash of deaths this year after people were mauled by Westies.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 6:22:53 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
tiny ankle biter dogs are some of the most vicious dogs in reality.

True. Locally we've had a rash of deaths this year after people were mauled by Westies.

So by your logic a small dog can't be vicious or aggressive because it can't kill somebody... Yeah, I deal with idiotic dog owners all the time who think that, most of them are too lazy or too stupid to raise and train their dogs as dogs should be raised.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/26/dog-aggression.html

http://www.k9magazine.org/most-aggressive-dog-breeds/

I'd actually go as far as saying most bites are due to the humans, the owners or the person treating the dog wrong, idiots who think it's a great idea to grab dogs from behind and startle them. But it's always easier to blame dogs or certain breeds. The amount of shit most dogs have to put up from clueless people, if somebody would do that to a human, the human would have chinned the idiots messing with them or getting in their space a long time before. The other day a child was smacking one of my dogs repeatedly with some toy gun, while the parents looked on, the brat nor the parents reacted when I asked the child to stop, I took the liberty of picking the spoiled brat up and handing it back to the parents with "Maybe you can tell your child it's not a good idea to hit dogs!" And got the "He's only 5, he's not doing any harm" bullshit, I was more than tempted to take the stupid toy gun off the savage and smack him and the parents. Would be nice if people could be responsible parents, because I don't mind being responsible for my dogs, but I draw the line at being responsible for the offspring of others. The gene pool seems to have some very shallow ends...

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 6:48:59 AM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
So by your logic a small dog can't be vicious or aggressive because it can't kill somebody.

No, by my logic a small dog can be vicious but it can't kill me because it can't kill me. If a shih tzu bites me I'll survive except for the most rare situations. Substitute pit bull or rottweiler or doberman for shih tzu in that last sentence and the situation is much different. Can you just imagine the carnage if a pack of Yorkies (no matter how mean and vicious) had gotten to those livestock?

I get the whole "it's the owner not the dog" logic and for the most part I agree. I live in a neighborhood (not for long - moving next Friday) with a higher than average incidence of pit bull type ownership and I have seen the owner effect you cite in action. But every time these discussions come about some advocate of these breeds labeled as vicious mentions how small breeds are statistically more vicious than large breeds. That's where they lose my support and the support of most other folks are are open to listen. That may statically be so. Since you like to quote websites with statistics let's find a website with statistics about dog attack deaths and we'll see how high Pomeranians rank on that one. Address the responsible ownership angle and drop the ankle biter angle. It make the argument look stupid and frankly it looks like a smokescreen... because it is.

Dogs bite people. Any and All dogs. It happens. The dogs you and others regularly champion in these types of threads can kill people. That's my logic.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 6:50:26 AM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

So by your logic a small dog can't be vicious or aggressive because it can't kill somebody... Yeah, I deal with idiotic dog owners all the time who think that, most of them are too lazy or too stupid to raise and train their dogs as dogs should be raised.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/26/dog-aggression.html

http://www.k9magazine.org/most-aggressive-dog-breeds/

EXACTLY!!!!!! people often falsely correlate aggression with lethality; they are sometimes present at the same time, but they are NOT the same thing. a pit bull may kill someone biting ONE person in its entire life. a schnauzer may bite 40 people in its lifetime, but kill none of them. but the most aggressive/vicious dog is the one that bit 40 people, not one.
pitbulls have unique physiology and a terrier "don't give up" mentality, and anyone who gets one needs to understand that, and train the dog well. but aggression and lethality are not the same thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'd actually go as far as saying most bites are due to the humans, the owners or the person treating the dog wrong, idiots who think it's a great idea to grab dogs from behind and startle them. But it's always easier to blame dogs or certain breeds. The amount of shit most dogs have to put up from clueless people, if somebody would do that to a human, the human would have chinned the idiots messing with them or getting in their space a long time before. The other day a child was smacking one of my dogs repeatedly with some toy gun, while the parents looked on, the brat nor the parents reacted when I asked the child to stop, I took the liberty of picking the spoiled brat up and handing it back to the parents with "Maybe you can tell your child it's not a good idea to hit dogs!" And got the "He's only 5, he's not doing any harm" bullshit, I was more than tempted to take the stupid toy gun off the savage and smack him and the parents. Would be nice if people could be responsible parents, because I don't mind being responsible for my dogs, but I draw the line at being responsible for the offspring of others. The gene pool seems to have some very shallow ends...

and honestly, this is fairly common of how humans relate to other animals in general. we abuse them daily, constantly, and when they fight back, we make shows about it, and kill the animals that do it. when an elephant who has been routinely abused in the circus for 30 years flips out, tramples its trainer, and runs havok through a city, people blame the elephant, rather than looking at the system that created the problem.
it's the same problem with pitbulls; many of these animals are bred for fighting and mistreated, many of them are treated like crap by people who shouldn't have pet rocks, much less dogs, many of them come from terrible genetic stock from fighting dogs and backyard breeders, many of them living with plain clueless people who have no sense of responsibility or accountability. those are HUMAN problems, not dog problems.

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RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 6:52:53 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
tiny ankle biter dogs are some of the most vicious dogs in reality.

True. Locally we've had a rash of deaths this year after people were mauled by Westies.

In reality most of the toy and small breeds have a significant amount of terrier blood and terriers were bred to be vicious killers\, just the stuff they kill is there size and smaller. The small breeds prey drive and propensity to bite are not bred out because breeders don't consider it a priority.

Compare that to the Great Dane. It was initially bred to be a hunter of big game and as a war dog. Breeders have bred almost all the aggression and prey drive out of the breed over the last couple of centuries and we now have a giant but gentle breed.

On topic the American Pit Bull is something of a quandry. It is a terrier so it has a strong prey drive and its initial breeding was for fighting bulls and other dogs. Responsible breeders are producing wonderful dogs with gentle temperments but less responsible breeders are making no effort to produce safe dogs and due to the popularity of the breed, as a symbol of machismo in some subcultures, there is way too much demand for puppies. And don't get me started on people who actually do fight their dogs.

But keep in mind that the American Pit Bull is one of the smartest breeds going and a properly trained and socialized animal can be a loyal and safe family pet. But it is a breed the absolutely must be socialized and trained at an early age. It simply is not for an inexperienced or lazy owner.

To Sanity, don't know what teh dangerous dog laws are like in Idaho but I'd try and make sure those dogs are put down. Adults dogs with that strong a prey drive and such an irresponsible owner are a danger to people and livestock and their hopes for rehabilitation are slim.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/11/2011 6:54:52 AM >

(in reply to DomImus)

Post #: 19

RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) - 6/11/2011 6:54:22 AM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

On topic the American Pit Bull is something of a quandry. It is a terrier so it has a strong prey drive and its initial breeding was for fighting bulls and other dogs. Responsible breeders are producing wonderful dogs with gentle temperments but less responsible breeders are making no effort to produce safe dogs and due to the popularity of the breed, as a symbol of machismo in some subcultures, there is way too much demand for puppies. And don't get me started on people who actually do fight their dogs.

But keep in mind that the American Pit Bull is one of the smartest breeds going and a properly trained and socialized animal can be a loyal and safe family pet. But it is a breed the absolutely must be socialized and trained at an early age. It simply is not for an inexperienced or lazy owner.

so very true.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 20

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