RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men?

RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (Full Version)

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sunshinemiss -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/2/2011 7:00:07 PM)
You know, I'm coming back to this thread (again). I'll admit that I haven't read all the words others have written, nor have I re-read what I've said in the past. I do know my thoughts about this have walked through a bit of an obstacle course to get here, though. There are things about certain societies that make it difficult for people to be themselves. In Korea, it's easier for me to be who I am in many ways. I'm quirky. I'm tough. I'm loving. In the USA, people very much tried (and often succeeded in) taking advantage of me. I cared a lot about what people thought of me. I tried to fit my square peggedness into a round hole. Funny, since it's such a bastion of individuality. Anyway, here in Korea, I'm just another foreigner. They expect us to be different. They expect the quirk. It mostly gets ignored, or they are charmed by it. When I give them my full attention, when I'm able to open my heart and love them person-to-person, there is no question about intent. Men don't think I'm trying to pick them up, women don't think I'm hitting on them. They just think I'm "foreign" and they accept who and what I am. It allows me a lot more freedom to be me instead of holding back. People don't feel the need to put up a wall between us. The women here are uber feminine. I am not. A little swipe of lipstick every day, and that's it. Marketers have realized how much Koreans groom themselves, so mirrors are everywhere. They are always fixing their eye makeup and their hair. I am not. I put it on and run a brush through my hair, and I'm done. I'm so different! In the USA, people would tell me to doll up "You know, sunshine, if you wore a little make up, you'd be a lot prettier.) I recognized it as the backhanded compliment it was. It hurt. I'm sensitive. Here, my sensitivity is not trodden upon. Here they just think it's "foreign" that I don't wear make up. They accept it and don't suggest I change it, thereby allowing me to continue to be sensitive and not hurt. The foreign men here with whom I interact and who are staying here are generally not what people would call "manly" men. They are a bit geeky if you want to know the truth (aw the geeky Europeans just charm me every time!) They admit in private that they love how they can interact in the culture in a more relaxed way because they don't have to be uber-manly. Their sensitivity and kindness are really well accepted here. The competitiveness between men is not quite so prevalent here - at least not in the ways we are accustomed to in the USA. They, too, are "foreigners." I think that when you speak of "society", especially here on the internet, we must realize that there is more than one society. (I'd venture to say that there is a culture within families, within work places, within friendships, maybe even within each person - but that's a different thread [;)]). Society and peer pressure and culture do in fact attach themselves to the people. It is then up to the adult person to find the culture / the society that best matches who and what they are and then live their best life. At least that's how I see it. For me, I love seeing the place where cultures meet and there is opportunity for people to find their own personal truth - we don't really know who we are until we know who we are not. As is often the case when I post on a thought-provoking question, this is a work in progress (I love that I'm always learning). But the above is what has been what I've come to think on as I watched the very different responses westerners had to the recent natural disaster here versus how easterners responded. Such is life. best, sunshine

leadership527 -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/2/2011 7:29:47 PM)
True enough Sunshine... but honestly, given the popular stereotype of "Real Men", don't you think that a "real man" wouldn't be stopped by "society"?? I mean seriously, these guys ride horses and whatnot! I should thank that only lesser mortals like us fake men would be shaped and impacted by the society we live in.

sunshinemiss -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/2/2011 7:40:09 PM)
You know, Jeff, the Marlboro Man died of lung cancer. Just a thought. I'll tell you, I love the cowboys, the fire fighters, the warriors. I love how they are in their bodies. I also love the intellectuals. I love how they can think and put things together and find solutions, have the ability to see not just things as they are but how to weight those things and put them together into a viable answer. I love the artists who see the world in a completely different way, who take their vision and turn it into poetry and dance and music and things that make the soul soar. I think real men are just men who are themselves. (Your response earlier is what kept rattling around in my brain - are you bruised much from all that empty space?) To think that society does not shape the man in many ways is blindness in my own estimation. It is and always will be a combination of nature and nurture. best wishes to you and yours, sunshine (who has to get to work now!)

leadership527 -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/2/2011 8:36:51 PM)
Of course, I agree with that whole post... and if your definition of "real men" is what was generally meant then the phrase wouldn't be so offensive.

Arturas -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/4/2011 2:04:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: texastgirl i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist. when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something. a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim. so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control? Yes. But only for weak men. Backing up to where this started, the effort to make men and women the same in roles and responsibilities has left this modern American society with several generations of men who are unwilling to assume the responsibilities of a man to himself, his wife and children and society. He does not care except for himself with the redefinition of what a man is and instead thinks the selfish and weak and whiney man is what men should be. You see them now, they are the men leaving their wife and child for some skank who has no children to trouble him and he is sitting in the passenger seat of her car because he lost his license and/or has no car because he drank or did drugs or simply lived of his wife and never bought his own car. Worse, this is self perpetuating with the majority of current society thinking a man carries no special responsibility and so weak men continue to take advantage of this morality by leaving their families which then leaves male children in the next generation lacking any male role model except for the new sensitive ones on T.V. episodes like old reruns of "Friends" or lazy and abusive ones on MTV and so this continues until society is made up of broken families and irresponsible men and women wondering where "all the heroes have gone". Well wishes, Arturas

xssve -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/5/2011 6:14:28 AM)
I'll tell ya, it's a very abstract conversation, what a real man is and isn't is mythmaking, not reality - in reality there are gym rats and nerds, gentlemen and mashers, men's men, ladies men, and curmudgeons - I'd need and example of a "real man" - take Andrew Dice Clay (Brainsmasher) - his whole schtick was unapologetic manliness, he was publicly humiliated and his career destroyed for basically... acting like a guy. His timing was bad if you ask me, fast forward a few years, and you've got Girls Gone Wild and the Man Show - too late for the Dice, it's got to be one of the most remarkable things I've ever witnessed, the guy was just too big - Paris Hilton didn't generate anything that much sheer hatred and disdain, it was palpable, and the Dice, whatever else you want to say about him, was one funny motherfucker. Anyway, so much for "real men don't care what people say about them", or maybe they just go being themselves in exile and obscurity.

Awareness -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/5/2011 4:59:47 PM)
Christ. This has gone on long enough. You people are a bunch of whiny politically correct fucking pussies without the strength to take an actual position on anything. Any attempt to define "real man" is simply talking about what constitutes an aspirational role model. And an aspirational role model is one which defines success for someone of the male gender. Success being a happy life, loads of pussy (or cock, if you're so inclined), a driving purpose which gets you up in the mornings, male offspring to carry on your name and the acquisition of resources and social power sufficient to provide for yourself and to give them a decent kick-start into their own lives. At some point, the question of leaving a legacy may arise. That's the definition of success for most men. And so that aspirational role model is one which eats up that idea of success for breakfast and cures cancer by lunch time. That's what being a "real man" is all about. It's a fucking archetype which provides a goal for the vast majority of men and gives us a standard by which we may measure ourselves and others. Because life - whether you fuckers want to acknowledge it or not - is just one big fucking competition. And the real man archetype is a stake in the ground. Now chew on that, you relativist milquetoast excuses for masculinity.

xssve -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (8/11/2011 3:49:17 PM)
Oooooh, I think I'm swooning! [:D]

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