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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 8:56:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But, since her post never once specified a single woman... its a rather carefully worded posting with the intent to hide. Like the definition of rare.

So you are reading her mind, and know of her motives to be deceptive, rather than careful, are you?

How do you define "rare", anyway?

Firm


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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 8:57:59 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And, no Treasure, I dont " extrapolate".... thats making an assumption based upon what you did.... and didnt.. say.


The reason I gave examples was two-fold.  First, so that you could extrapolate and make an assumption.  The issue and venue here isn't one where a detailed dissertation is absolutely necessary... if you got the general idea, that's close enough.

Second, to illustrate the complexity of societal and interpersonal relationships.  You've asked for a pat answer to a multi-dimensional question.  It doesn't exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

... Even though I never get a direct answer to a direct question.


It would be nice if life were that simple all the time.

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 8:58:41 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Get a room GUYS..........

(sorry it is how I am built its an obsession, and OCD maybe)

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 8:58:54 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You know, these "religious extremists" could use some education, since us Jews don't have any issue with abortions performed pre-quickening.

Post-quickening? Yeah, there's plenty of debate, but until the Mother feels the baby move? It ain't a baby.

Life does NOT begin at conception. That is G-d's Law.

Interesting take, and based on good reasoning.

However, it brings to mind a common disconnect in logic I see with some vegetarian lefties ... they believe in abortion on demand, at any time, but won't eat any meat or meat products because it's immoral ...

Always thought that was funny.

Firm



Just wait until the Vegans and Vegetarians have to reconcile their beliefs with cultured meat-product. ( Think veal, without the cow...
)

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:00:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Its not that difficult a question, Treasure. I have taken care of many women who had abortions, considering my line of work. I never thought less of any of them. I have three close friends who have had abortions... my response... im sorry, want to talk about it? I have had two sisters-in-law who had abortions, never changed my view of either.

Its really a simple question, unless you dont want it to be.

~edited because I hate typos

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/18/2011 9:02:40 AM >

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:04:21 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Just wait until the Vegans and Vegetarians have to reconcile their beliefs with cultured meat-product. ( Think veal, without the cow... )

Methinks you missed my "Long Pig" thread in OT.

It was yanked for a while, but came back.

Firm


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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:08:17 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its not that difficult a question, Treasure. I have taken care of many women who had abortions, comsidering my line of work. I never thought less of any of them. I have three close friends who have had abortions... my response... im sorry, want to talk about it? I have had two sisters-in-law who had abortions, never changed my view of either.

Its really a simple question, unless you dont want it to be.


Exactly what does your reaction to the relationships you've experienced have to do with how I answered?

I think I was very clear in stating that it would depend, and gave a reasonable method for you to see how complexly I view the issue.

Okay... so you feel it is a simple question.  Does this make you feel morally superior in some fashion?

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:12:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Nope, it does show you are snarkily superior though, since you cant seem to answer a single question directly.

Back to the rare question. I noticed you didnt address that. Is 1.2% rare enough for you?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:33:21 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Just wait until the Vegans and Vegetarians have to reconcile their beliefs with cultured meat-product. ( Think veal, without the cow... )

Methinks you missed my "Long Pig" thread in OT.

It was yanked for a while, but came back.

Firm



Probably. I come, and I go as time and inclination permits.

Yeah, well... We all know that without regulations, the Free Market would sell baby meat, so you're not too far off on the edge of the ethical implications.

This is EXACTLY why we have government regulation. To ensure that the beef-sample#19233738 you're buying IS beef-sample#19233738!

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/18/2011 9:35:44 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:34:53 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You know, these "religious extremists" could use some education, since us Jews don't have any issue with abortions performed pre-quickening.

Post-quickening? Yeah, there's plenty of debate, but until the Mother feels the baby move? It ain't a baby.

Life does NOT begin at conception. That is G-d's Law.



Actually, according to the Bible, a person is not a living being until they take the first breath of life.

For example, if you cause your neighbor's wife to miscarry, the penalty is paying a fine for the cost of a possible heir.

If you kill your neighbor's wife, they will stone you....


It seems just by that one law in the New Testament alone, they are saying an unborn life does not have the same value as a born human's life.

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:37:42 AM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		(Continuing on the theme of religious extremism)

"New Testament"? Is that like some sort of unauthorized fan-fic sequel or something?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:39:40 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I always assumed it was an answer to Neitzsches 'God is Dead'.

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:41:34 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Second, if someone believes that abortion is taking the life of an innocent person (you may not agree), would it not be an honorable and moral thing for them to work to stop this murder?  Including working to have our elected representatives achieve this goal?


If they are basing that life begins at the moment of conception, then they are not basing it on scientific and legal emthods to determine a living human being, that has all of the rights of another human being. They are using belief and faith. If we take that to an extreme, then killing an abortion doctor would be legal, as you are committing justifiable homicide.

quote:


Third, how is this particular method different from any of the other methods used by people who wish to "impose" their moral beliefs on the world through the democratic political process?  Especially other "single issue" voters?


This method comes from imposing a religious based belief, that has no substantive ethical basis in law, except to uphold the religious belief. Thou shall not murder is something the common welfare of the people all have an agreement on, without the use of religious belief. Do you see the difference there? Now when does murder happen? What method should be used to determine that? Scientific methods of observation, and then the use of reason should come before a purely religious belief, when determining a law.

Locally I have opposed ordinances, and laws that were fueled purely by religious belief. So there is not much difference in single issue voters that base their decisions purely upon religion and faith. The differences only being the issues they address.

I will further add that not all that are opposed to abortion are extremist or zealots, it is the ones that are, that seem to drive much of that political fire.

Hope this makes sense as I am a bit rushed. Will try to return later to check on the topic more.



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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:41:39 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Nope, it does show you are snarkily superior though, since you cant seem to answer a single question directly.


Sheesh...

I fail to see why you think this is such an important question.  Do you have some personal and emotional reason to be so vested in other people's personal value judgments?

I don't know how to make this any clearer to you other than to reiterate...
  1. The idea of abortion doesn't feel right to me.
  2. I don't believe abortions should be made illegal.
  3. I feel the option to abort should be exercised rarely.
How I feel about someone having an abortion isn't really relevant.   Society does not revolve around my personal feelings.  I am able to successfully divorce my personal feelings from what I consider to be logically reasonable for society as a whole, and they only have impact for those with whom I develop closer relationships.

As I am not in the habit of developing close relationships with women based solely on their reproductive choices, it just isn't that big of an issue to me or them. 

I would have thought that it would be obvious, because I don't think abortion should be illegal, that there are situations in which I believe an abortion would be seen as the logical choice.  It doesn't mean I feel good about them, but I do believe the option should be there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Back to the rare question. I noticed you didnt address that. Is 1.2% rare enough for you?


As compared to what? 

This isn't a quantifiable issue.  Rare isn't there to set a number... it is there to describe an attitude.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 9:44:35 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Of which I asked your opinion of that number being rare enough.

Its ok Treasure. You have bored me with enough with your attempts to avoid answering a question directly.

Enjoy your day.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 10:34:15 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually Ron Paul has introduced federal anti abortion bills that would make all abortions murder.

I dunno... what bill would that be? What does it say? Try to support your claims occasionally. Just for fun, eh?

K.

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 11:13:00 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually Ron Paul has introduced federal anti abortion bills that would make all abortions murder.

I dunno... what bill would that be? What does it say? Try to support your claims occasionally. Just for fun, eh?

K.

http://thomas .loc. gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.776.IH:: (remove the two spaces to make link work the forum software doesn't like the link for some reason)
He introduced the exact same bill in 2005, 2007 and 2009.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/18/2011 11:16:34 AM >

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RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 11:13:01 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is religious zealotry to demand that one's religious views be invested with the power of law.

I would equate the specific "religious view" as a "moral view"...I'd say that all laws are based on a person's or group of persons' "moral view" of the world.

Equating one's religious view with morality is the basis of Christian Reconstructionism.

All law is religious in nature, and every non-Biblical law-order represents an anti-Christian religion. ~ R. J. Rushdoony

K.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 11:13:36 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Of which I asked your opinion of that number being rare enough.

Its ok Treasure. You have bored me with enough with your attempts to avoid answering a question directly.

Enjoy your day.


I'll pretend you didn't mean that with any snarkiness. 

Look... let me provide you with some data-driven and professional analysis:

Public discussion about abortion in the United States has generally focused on policy: who should be allowed to have abortions, and under what circumstances. Receiving less attention are the women behind the statistics—the 1.3 million women who obtain abortions each year—and their reasons for having abortions. While a small proportion of women who have abortions do so because of health concerns or fetal anomalies, the large majority choose termination in response to an unintended pregnancy. However, "unintended pregnancy" does not fully capture the reasons and life circumstances that lie behind a woman's decision to obtain an abortion. What personal, familial, social and economic factors lead to the decision to end a pregnancy?

...

In light of the public debate over the morality of abortion, it is notable that the women in our survey emphasized their conscious examination of the moral aspects of their decisions. Although some described abortion as sinful and wrong, many of those same women, and others, described the indiscriminate bearing of children as a sin, and their abortion as "the right thing" and "a responsible choice." Respondents often acknowledged the complexity of the decision, and described an intense and difficult process of deciding to have an abortion, which took into account the moral weight of their responsibilities to their families, themselves and children they might have in the future.

In layman's terms, it is a hard decision to make.  As you're talking about the termination of a life or potential life... however you want to see it, it should be hard.   The decision to take that action should never be easy and without thought. 

In a perfect world to me, it should also be rare.  Whether the number is one or one-million, the end goal should be that no fetuses are casually aborted without deliberate and thoughtful consideration... as an "easy" way out of a tough situation brought on by reckless behavior or due to lack of adequate resources and support.

As I'm sure you'll agree, we don't live in a perfect world.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 6/18/2011 11:14:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: hang on a mo... - 6/18/2011 11:21:16 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And we are back to the majority trying to control women.

Dont use birth control.

Dont want to provide birth control as part if an insurance package, but lets provide all the viagra we can.

Close down PP which provides, heaven forbid, abortions as 3% of its service. Yet prevented millions of unwanted pregnancies.

What you are being told is a moral issue is actually a control issue to keep women in "their place".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 100
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