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juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 5:54:08 PM)

quote:

or they could be real honest and just say "I don't understand how you can be stupid enough to believe that bullshit."

Any way you put it, it will sound rude, so why sugar coat it. I am just surprised that he followed that comment with "However, I fail to understand the condescention of some atheists"


I think people can be too overly sensitive about this stuff... on BOTH sides.

I see a big difference between saying "I think the bible is a fairytale" and saying "I think every war ever fought was all due to religion and all religious people are violent assholes"...

One is asserting a personal opinion, the other is demonizing an entire group of people.




tweakabelle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatisthewhat


That being said, I think a woman will be elected President before an atheist in this country, and that shows you just how deep these two prejudices are.


Your statement, it seems to me, says it all. Thank you for making things so crystal clear.


quote:

quote:



ORIGINAL: DomKen

Was she or was she not fired for being an atheist?


Kirata
She was not. She was fired "for violating a policy that prohibits employees from advocating 'principles contrary' to the teachings of the church." Atheism, per se, had nothing to do with it. She would have been just as fired if she had publicly advocated any of a dozen other things.



This seems a trifle ingenuous to me. The logic is precisely that of the claims: "I didn't discriminate against them because they were homosexuals. I discriminated against them because they were two men/women holding hands and kissing." or "I didn't discriminate against them because they were blacks. I discriminated against them because they had curly black hair, thickish lips and flat broad noses" or "I hate the sin not the sinner".

I am unaware of American legal interpretation on this issue. None of these claims would be a defence under Australian discrimination law. Quite the contrary. I've been told that here, your statement would count as good evidence of an intent to discriminate on the grounds of belief ie. such statements would help convict someone, not exonerate them. As it should be.



BamaD -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am sure not all are like this because they always get around to atheists are smarter than Christians so they must be right.
And their proof that they are smarter.......they are atheists.  Yes the classic circular argument.     


No it`s more like theists can`t prove there is a god.

That`s why it`s called faith.


True no more than Atheists can prove there isn't one also a matter of faith.



BamaD -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:14:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

or they could be real honest and just say "I don't understand how you can be stupid enough to believe that bullshit."

Any way you put it, it will sound rude, so why sugar coat it. I am just surprised that he followed that comment with "However, I fail to understand the condescention of some atheists"


I think people can be too overly sensitive about this stuff... on BOTH sides.

I see a big difference between saying "I think the bible is a fairytale" and saying "I think every war ever fought was all due to religion and all religious people are violent assholes"...

One is asserting a personal opinion, the other is demonizing an entire group of people.



One is condescending the other bigotry.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:20:24 PM)

I would agree with that...

Unfortunately, we cannot stop people from thinking like bigots, or saying bigoted things, all we can do is say that bigots are not allowed to discriminate in certain ways based upon their feelings



Owner59 -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:29:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am sure not all are like this because they always get around to atheists are smarter than Christians so they must be right.
And their proof that they are smarter.......they are atheists.  Yes the classic circular argument.     


No it`s more like theists can`t prove there is a god.

That`s why it`s called faith.


True no more than Atheists can prove there isn't one also a matter of faith.


No.

Science doesn`t start with faith.

It starts with proof,provable fact,repeatable proof of things and goes from there.

Religion starts with faith,not proof and spends it`s time hoping others have faith,without proof.

Faith and fact are not the same thing.

That`s why it`s called faith.Faith doesn`t have to show proof.

With your theory of relative faiths,I could say you were spawned by a spaghetti monster and challenged you to prove you weren`t.Short of that proof,you`re part spaghetti.[:D]



tweakabelle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:38:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am sure not all are like this because they always get around to atheists are smarter than Christians so they must be right.
And their proof that they are smarter.......they are atheists.  Yes the classic circular argument.     


No it`s more like theists can`t prove there is a god.

That`s why it`s called faith.


True no more than Atheists can prove there isn't one also a matter of faith.


This claim is absolute nonsense. Pure gibberish.

My disbelief that green people live on Mars is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of absence/lack of evidence to establish that green people live on Mars . Ditto theism.

Usually, beliefs are held because of the preponderance of evidence affirming the belief. Not believing in an ideology is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of absence/lack of evidence. When the evidence changes so will my beliefs.

Non-believers are under no obligation to prove their case. The obligation lies solely, exclusively with believers.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:44:28 PM)

quote:

Science doesn`t start with faith.


"science" is a method.

We develop scientific theories based upon the scientific method.

A theory is a group of hypothesis that grouped together support a larger concept. Each hypothesis can be shown to either support the theory, or not. A theory, while a good, educated guess, is not a fact. It is only the best idea at any given moment based upon not being able to be disproven because various hypothesis supporting it have been shown to be repeatable.

Now, put this up to the existence of "god", how do you scientifically test this theory? You can't at this point, but that does not mean that god does not exist. All it means is you cannot test for a divine being(s). Now, you can do the entire "spaghetti monster" bit, because you think it is cute, whatever, but really it says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of god.

Based upon the current state of scientific knowledge, we do not know if god exists, any other conclusion is based upon belief, which is what both atheists and theist share in common, just in different directions.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I am sure not all are like this because they always get around to atheists are smarter than Christians so they must be right.
And their proof that they are smarter.......they are atheists.  Yes the classic circular argument.     


No it`s more like theists can`t prove there is a god.

That`s why it`s called faith.


True no more than Atheists can prove there isn't one also a matter of faith.

We don't need to prove anything. We aren't the ones making an assertion that cannot be backed up by any evidence.

Of course, Tweaky already stated this more eloquently than I.



BamaD -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:49:11 PM)

Every Atheist I have talked to face to face claim to prove there is no God.  It is like talking to a Seventh Day Advendest. Both are evangelical to the point of being obnoxious.  And note I said face to face not accusing anyone here.   



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:49:58 PM)

quote:

My disbelief that green people live on Mars is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of absence/lack of evidence to establish that green people live on Mars . Ditto theism.


We have went to Mars and looked for "green people" and we know they weren't there

How do you go into what maybe another dimension and test for being(s) that may or may not exist? We have no way to do that. Now, if you come up with a way to travel to another dimension and check, and then tell me that there is nothing there, perhaps I will dismiss that idea in the same way we found out there is no sentient life on mars...

Personally, I do not believe in the angry desert god either, but that does not mean I dismiss a consciousness that communicates with humanity in ways I do not understand.... just because we cannot see it, does not mean it does not exist... before microscopes, no one had any clue there was a microscopic world except a few thinkers, and many of them were dismissed for theorizing about it.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 7:52:12 PM)

what a shame, now we get into "my belief is better than your belief, you are stoopid, evil, have no morals, are starting wars" pissing contest

Both sides suck ass



tweakabelle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:13:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

what a shame, now we get into "my belief is better than your belief, you are stoopid, evil, have no morals, are starting wars" pissing contest

Both sides suck ass

Please don't assume that just because I don't believe in any God I have to be an 'atheist" (whatever that means).

The best description of my beliefs in this area is agnostic. There is no good reason to believe it seems to me. Trying to prove a negative is an exercise in futility.

So I haven't got the faintest idea whether there's a God or not, and regard all strong beliefs in this area sceptically. The biggest difference, in my experience, is that non-believers rarely impose their beliefs on others whereas, in my exp, believers have been attempting that all my life.

Abortion is one easy example to support my perspective. There are many more.



LanceHughes -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:17:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Every Atheist I have talked to face to face claim to prove there is no God.  It is like talking to a Seventh Day Advendest. Both are evangelical to the point of being obnoxious.  And note I said face to face not accusing anyone here.   

Typical lack of logic - you really, really, need to let us know what percentage of all atheists you have had such face-to-face discussions with.

Oh, look.... here's one on CM that does NOT claim to "prove there is no God."

Here's what I say when confronted with the question "Why are you so sure there is no gawd?"

I question back :
Do you believe in Thor? No.
Do you believe in Ra, the Egyptian Sun God? No, they sheepishly reply since they can see where we're going....
Do you believe in the gods Neptune or Saturn, Pluto, Mars or Mercury ? No.
Well, I simply believe in one less god than you do.

The Egyptian religion lasted aout 5,000 years give a hundred years or two.  Christianity has been around for about 2,000 years.  Just sayin' - It seems that NO religion has lasted very long..... on a human scale.

Another, but  non-religious example: People my age truly believed that the Berlin Wall would last forever - at least through our lifetimes.




rawtape -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now, put this up to the existence of "god", how do you scientifically test this theory? You can't at this point, but that does not mean that god does not exist. All it means is you cannot test for a divine being(s). Now, you can do the entire "spaghetti monster" bit, because you think it is cute, whatever, but really it says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of god.



True, the "spaghetti monster" says nothing about either the existence or nonexistence of god. What it does point out, however, is that there is no particular reason to "privilege" a thesis about god any more than all the other concepts whose validity or lack thereof is currently not provable.

One can conceive of an unlimited number of such non-verifiable concepts, e.g. are there undetectable miniature pink unicorns prancing about everyone's head, are invisible fairies spitting on my food, am I part of a simulation, etc. However, most people don't waste their time thinking about these concepts, each as untestable as the god thesis; instead, they simply dismiss these concepts out of hand. Why then, should the god thesis be privileged and treated differently?




Kirata -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:20:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

We don't need to prove anything. We aren't the ones making an assertion that cannot be backed up by any evidence.

You don't need to prove anything if you simply don't believe that there's a God. And people who believe that there is don't need to prove anything either. But people who declare it to be a fact that there is no God are in the same boat as people who declare it to be a fact that there is one.

K.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:25:29 PM)

quote:

So I haven't got the faintest idea whether there's a God or not, and regard all strong beliefs in this area sceptically. The biggest difference, in my experience, is that non-believers rarely impose their beliefs on others whereas, in my exp, believers have been attempting that all my life.


Like I posted earlier, the Free Thought Society I briefly joined was intent on forcing others to believe as they did... and there are people on this forum that are not only "condescending", but bigoted to religious people. Since very few theist threads get started here, and we have Brain posting atheist threads with commentary about how bad theists are... well HERE at least, I would say the atheists were more heavy handed.



LanceHughes -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:26:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
<snipped>
The biggest difference, in my experience, is that non-believers rarely impose their beliefs on others whereas, in my exp, believers have been attempting that all my life.
<snipped>

QUOTED FOR TRUTH



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:29:51 PM)

quote:

True, the "spaghetti monster" says nothing about either the existence or nonexistence of god. What it does point out, however, is that there is no particular reason to "privilege" a thesis about god any more than all the other concepts whose validity or lack thereof is currently not provable.


It is a lame assed attempt at "humor" and is disrespectful towards people who believe in divine beings. It does nothing in my mind but insult people who have faith in a divine being. It does not create any understanding or common ground between the two camps, and the minute I hear that sort of language I know I am dealing with a Richard Dawkins worshiping asshole that has no interest in understanding other people, but only wants to bully.

I respect Dawkins about as much as I respect a herpes outbreak. The man in an insufferable prick



eihwaz -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/19/2011 8:33:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Science doesn`t start with faith.

Science is based on the unprovable assumption that the cosmos is ordered rationally according to universal, discoverable laws.  So you could say that science does start with faith.



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