Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (Full Version)

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NuevaVida -> Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:08:03 AM)

This isn't about me; I'm just interested in how others view the concept of marriage. 

I've heard some people claim it's just a piece of paper, and they don't need it to make a commitment to their partner.

I've heard some people say it makes the commitment and/or bond to each other stronger.

I've heard some people say it's too problematic to partake in, because it makes breaking up so much more difficult and complicated.

I've heard some people say it's the marriage vows that kept them together, during the really rough times.

So what say you?

I also wonder, regarding same-sex-marriage and the laws against it, what same-sex partners feel about marriage, and their inability to partake in it?  Do you feel this limits your ability to commit to each other the way you'd like to, or is there no impact to your emotional relationship by remaining unwed?

Or for the poly folks, does the inability to marry more than one of your partners feel limiting, or is there no impact to your emotional relationships by remaining unwed?

(Please do not make this a debate about same sex marriage or polygamy - I'm simply interested in the views of people with regard to their own partner(s), or partner(s) to be.  Thank you!)





GreedyTop -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:09:16 AM)

to me, it is really just a business transaction.

of course, I am SERIOUSLY jaded.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:13:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

to me, it is really just a business transaction.

of course, I am SERIOUSLY jaded.


I understand the jaded bit, as I've been there myself.

However, I'm interested in why people feel as they do - If it's not too personal, can you expound on your "just a business transaction" thoughts?  I understand if you don't want to go there, though.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:14:45 AM)

Oh I should also add, I realize there are folks who feel marriage does not belong in M/s.  Respecting this is their choice for themselves, I'm interested in why you might feel that way, as well.



GreedyTop -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:14:46 AM)

I'll try to think of a way to articulate it.. no promises though...



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:15:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I'll try to think of a way to articulate it.. no promises though...


No worries, GT!  I didn't mean to put you on the spot...[&:]



sexyred1 -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:19:51 AM)

I think marriage can represent many things. It most certainly can be a business transaction (I know 3 people who married to get citizenship, all gay men who married straight women).

When a rich man marries a younger trophy wife; likely to be a business transaction, etc.

I also think it represents the celebration of a union. I got married because we wanted to share our union with our loved ones with a big celebration.

I also believe in marriage for children; not that you cannot have them without marriage, but I think it makes sense if you are going to have them.

I do not think it makes for a better union or commitment; I think individuals who care about their relationships work on them.

I think marriage has gotten a very bad rap with the divorce rate being so high; but it is not marriage that is the culprit in divorce, it is the ease with which people get out of troublesome situations without making an effort that is the culprit.

We are a disposable society today and that is what saddens me about the views on marriage.

As for same sex marriage, I am all for it and hope that Cuomo passes the bill in NY shortly.

Everyone should have the same rights regarding marriage.



juliaoceania -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:24:41 AM)

I think that marriage is about the joining of two people who decide that they want to act legally as one entity. This is not "justa piece of paper". It enables that person to make business choices that impact you (and your credit), it enables that person to make medical choices for you, and it enables a person to speak for you in many cases. It also is a very beneficial relationship for the rearing of children.

In my wiser years it is not something I would necessarily do again. I am done having kids, for example, so that part of the marriage relationship is not necessary for me anymore. We can empower people to make decisions for us if we cannot make them for ourselves, too. I would marry again if I could find a mate where that sort of commitment could be beneficial towards reaching our overarching goals... such as building something economically, etc. But I do not see it as only a business relationship, either, it is more important than that.

I want to leave whatever I make on my own to my son. So, I probably will not get hitched again.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:28:30 AM)

~FR~
 
For Spyder and I, it was a public declaration of the committment we've made to each other.  It was a way for us to bring our families together and to include them and our friends in our happiness.  We didn't need the piece of paper to validate our relationship but we wanted the bonding ritual.  It was also a practial decision.  It's no secret that marriage confers certain legal benefits, including financial and medical ones.  We're making good use of our heterosexual privilege. 
 
As a bisexual, polyamorous woman, I'd like the legal right to marry as many people as I like of whatever gender those people happen to be.  Not having that right isn't limiting to my relationships in and of themselves, but it's extremely limiting to my ability to enjoy the same legal and socioeconomic status with partners other than Spyder.  In order to have the same rights/privileges with other partners, I'd have to draw up legal contracts detailing such things as medical powers of attorney, inheritance, and alimony/palimony/child support agreements with each person.  Alternately, all of us would have to register ourselves as a corporation.  Even then, those contracts could be contested and overturned much easier than legal union.  That's a lot of work and expense that would be eliminated if we could get a marriage license. 



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:36:02 AM)

Thank you for the comments so far, I appreciate them.

Sylvere, you made an interesting point about the bonding ritual, while also stating the inability to marry others does not interfere in those relationships.

I wonder then, for those who aren't inclined to marry (again, in many cases), if they partake in other sorts of bonding rituals.  For me, personally, I think that's something more up my ally than marriage, but my thoughts are still in transition about it all.



LadyPact -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:41:45 AM)

Poly perspective - I'm seriously not hung up on the marriage designation between clip and I.  Even if it was available, due to the nature of our poly arrangement, I doubt I'd use it.  Of course, it's very important for Me to point out that I view the relationships with the two men in My life in separate ways.  They aren't on an equal basis and someone who sees their two partners as having the same place in their lives might see it very differently.

With that said, I would like to see some form of 'secondary partner' status be able to be recognized by the state for certain legal reasons.  One of the things that troubled Me a great deal during clip's deployment was My lack of rights to notification if something would happen to him overseas.  Of course, his wife would have notified Me, but I always had this feeling of just how difficult that would be for her.  To further illustrate the point, if clip had no wife, the fact that I'm already married to MP means that I will never be "next of kin".  Should clip's wife be the person who does happen to go first, we'll be the ones having to go through the hoops of establishing that I'm the one making medical decisions should anything ever happen.  Kind of an annoyance on our part that it seems that something like second partnership status could easily remedy.

Primary perspective - As for My marriage to MP, I'm a bit in two camps.  I think it did make our bond stronger, but I probably would have been just as content without it except for legal issues.  I'd have to say it was the legal aspects that tipped the scales because common law wouldn't have been sufficient to recognize all of the same areas.  There are huge gaps between the benefits of being a military wife and a live in girlfriend of someone who is in the military.  There were also aspects that we had to consider because I brought two children into the marriage with Me.  It is part of why we had a shorter than average courtship.  Seems to have turned out ok for us.



tj444 -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:49:17 AM)

Well, been there, done that! I will not do that again.

Imo, there are more cons than pros to getting married. I want to live with someone but not to have to marry them.

To me, living together is more of a commitment than marriage is. With marriage, a lot of people stay together for the wrong reasons (like he doesnt want to "give" her half the $/assets or lose the kids, etc). So there no longer is commitment, just restictions forced on the couple cuz of a piece of paper. Living together, you are committed to each other voluntarily, you are there cuz you really want to be, imo.

I read something recently and it said marriage was for the benefit of the govt, meaning the govt controls things regarding marriage, who can get married and who cant, they decide how you can get divorced and who gets what, they control how much taxes you pay, credit, debt, rights regarding kids, etc. I dont want to play by those rules, thank you very much.

And lets face it, the stats show that only about half the marriages survive...

Jmo.



lazarus1983 -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:50:03 AM)

In my opinion, marriage is at best unnecessary, and at worst a contract that traps two unhappy people together.

If I love someone, I do not need a government sponsored and enforced legal contract.



NuevaVida -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 11:54:04 AM)

LadyPact, you bring a perspective I had not considered, and that is the next of kin notification.  Interesting point.  Yet, from what you're saying, NOT being married does not impact the bond you have with clip.

I've had friends who lived together as bf/gf for years, and both said after they married, they felt more bonded to each other, even though nothing else had changed.  I always found that interesting, and wondered why that was.



lexora -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 12:23:20 PM)

Its a piece of paper that you put meaning on. It means what you want it to mean. So it would vary person to person, but with that piece of paper 2 become kinda like one, but there are other papers to get a similar result.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 12:49:11 PM)

I think Federal Laws and the ridiculously low Federal Poverty Guidelines that haven't been changed since most households became two income are responsible for the decreasing popularity of marriage. Many widows can't remarry without losing significant income. Disabled couples on Supplemental Security Income have their checks cut and lose Medicaid if they marry. Elderly couples often end their marriages when one spouse needs Medicaid to pay for a nursing home. Older college students receive less financial aid if they marry. In many cases, marriage penalties make cohabitation a better choice so people have to either change the way they feel about marriage or be depressed all the time because they can't marry.



LaTigresse -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 2:16:47 PM)

Marriage is a really complex topic for me. I have been legally married for over 30 years of my life.

The first was about as shot gun as you can get without the gun and someone standing over you holding it. None of my family was actually present. I was 16 and pregnant. It was September 9th, 1978..........another life time ago. I don't even remember that girl or the day. It was not a stellar time in my life. Full of booze, drugs, illegal activities, massive naivete on my part. Really amazing experiences, really scary experiences. Times of great wealthy and massive poverty. I am quite fortunate to have gotten myself and my kids, out of that mess as well I did. It was 1986 when I ran. I was married to him for another 3+ years.

In November 1989 I met Generic Dude and we became good friend almost immediately. We've been through the good, bad and ugly. If not for mistress military and our own stubborn natures, we likely would have divorced. Instead we've just kept the good, ditched the bad, and made it work.........no matter what. It is a situation that likely would not work for 99% of the population, but it works for us and that's all we care about. We are both stubborn and value commitment and personal integrity. We respect one another. He's not going to shit on me and I'm not going to shit on him. We get mad, we yell, we slam shit, he pouts like a spoilt 5 year old, I forget to apologize and often think I don't need to, he does and still often doesn't think he should. We are both royal pains in the ass.

But hey.........we made a commitment and we will honour it, however we have to tweak things to make it work.

If a woman came along that I wanted that kind of commitment with, I would like the option of poly marriage. So that she could have the legal safety net that I take for granted now.



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 2:53:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I also wonder, regarding same-sex-marriage and the laws against it, what same-sex partners feel about marriage, and their inability to partake in it?  Do you feel this limits your ability to commit to each other the way you'd like to, or is there no impact to your emotional relationship by remaining unwed?

Or for the poly folks, does the inability to marry more than one of your partners feel limiting, or is there no impact to your emotional relationships by remaining unwed?

(Please do not make this a debate about same sex marriage or polygamy - I'm simply interested in the views of people with regard to their own partner(s), or partner(s) to be.  Thank you!)




Being a Canadian, we had the legal right to marry our same sex lover for several years now. The feelings among my gay male friends both married and single, their opinions vary. A few of my married friends are happy that the laws allowed them to marry as they see marriage as the ultimate way of expressing the deep feelings and love they have for each other. Some of my gay friends who are co-habituating, they have no desire to marry as they feel the commitment they made to live as a couple is just as valid and see no need to have a wedding to "prove" their love for each other. The general consensus among my single friends is they have no desire to marry yet are glad that they have that option to use if and when they feel they want to marry but are in no rush to marry.

Myself, I have been living common law with another man and for both of us, we are content with the laws to common law relationships giving both myself and him the rights that heterosexual couples have. We like the fact that we have survivor benefits if our partner passes on, we like the right to designate our lover as beneficiaries in wills, power of attorneys and such. Even though we share the same residence and financial issues are quite intertwined, we basically lead fairly separate lives due to other issues which I won't get into detail.



needlesandpins -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 3:20:05 PM)

for me i have never wanted to be married and never will. i said in another thread that it's one of my worst nightmares only to be told i was wrong and it's actually my dream.

if it's what others want then cool but for me it's just a binding document that means nothing to me other than if i want to walk away i can't without a load of hassle. i called my ex my husband, i now call him my ex husband and he called me his wife. the commitment was there freely given already. legally it made no difference to us at all. it has made no difference to our son either. he has his dad's surname and no-one has ever questioned him or made any point about it.

i guess i have reasons for thinking like i do, but it's also a very physical thing too. when others get married it's great and i'm very happy for them. but for me i can't wait for it to be over so i can get the hell out. it makes no difference where the service is held either. my ex asked me to marry him and i was happy that he loved me enough to deem me worthy of asking. but he asked on the full understanding that no matter what i said in the moment, it would never happen. from then on we were husband and wife to each other and that was enough. it meant more to me to stay knowing i was free to walk with no come back what-so-ever any time i liked.

if it's what people want they should be able to do it and i see know reason why same sex couples shouldn't have exactly the same rights as anyone else. then again, considering what the modern day marriage came from.....well religion has alot to do with that.

needles



littlewonder -> RE: Marriage - just a piece of paper or something more? (6/20/2011 3:44:09 PM)

for me it's a sacred covenent between us and God. it's not just a piece of paper and for me it makes me feel more owned than i could ever be



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