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RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 9:47:52 AM

SpiritedRadiance

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Do you want me to take this knife and cut off my own penis pet?

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 41

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 10:14:16 AM

DecadentDesire

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Joined: 6/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
I can't imagine anything physically that he could request of me that I would say no to.
Emotionally either.

I suffer occasionally from vertigo. Usually if my sinuses are acting up. He can't tell that from looking at me. So on one of those days when I can feel it looming, I can't even lay flat on the bed with my head hanging down. I've had to say no to that, explain why, and then let him decide what other position he would prefer.

It's not a big thing, but it happens.

Oh come on now. You know that we're not talking about stuff like that.
I've made it pretty clear over the last three years that I'm in a realistic relationship with a grounded guy who doesn't request unrealistic stuff.
I have a torn rotator cuff. He knows I can't be tied with my arm over my head or my shoulders pulled back too far.
But if he does tell me to do something that I have no physical reason not to, I better be doing it.
And if he tells me to shut it, I better shut it.
I can't be in a relationship where I trust him half ass or only when it's convenient.
I either trust him completely even when things make me uncomfortable or I don't.
If I don't, then we're both out of there.

Even though you might not be talking about stuff like that, I do think it's relevant and there is an important distinction to be made here. Hence, why I asked you the question I did earlier.

The premise of this thread was under the negative perspective of "giving up the right to say no" in an relationship. Definitely not the first time I have seen this perspective brought up. I find it to be particularly ugly and inaccurate. It sheds obedience in a D/S and M/S relationship in light of the submissive/slave being required to allow themselves to be subjcted to harmful actions at the whim of their dominant. I consider this to be a misconception and where the whole myth of "D/S is abusive" comes into play.

After following the thread, I think everyone here is trying to say the exact same thing. The basis for obedience in a D/S relationship is not about "giving up the right to say no to your dominant", but rather "finding a man or woman who cares about your well being so deeply that you don't ever have to say no".

Everyone is just saying it in their own way.

_____________________________

I was once a Rabbit, driven Mad, by the Decadence of his Desires...

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 42

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 10:25:45 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

...the negative perspective of "giving up the right to say no" in an relationship. Definitely not the first time I have seen this perspective brought up. I find it to be particularly ugly and inaccurate. It sheds obedience in a D/S and M/S relationship in light of the submissive/slave being required to allow themselves to be subjcted to harmful actions at the whim of their dominant. I consider this to be a misconception and where the whole myth of "D/S is abusive" comes into play.

Agreed.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to DecadentDesire)

Post #: 43

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 10:26:22 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Someone I really respect over at Fet before he bailed once said to me.

"He promised to always obey and I promised to never make him say no"

There's a lot of wisdom in that. I'm a hard ass with Carol when it comes to things that will improve our marriage, but I don't go out of my way to make her life misery. The hard things I ask her to do are for her benefit as well as mine... even if they are focus on me in the immediate sense. She knows that. I suspect it also helps to make it palatable that I hold myself to the same standards if not higher.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to DecadentDesire)

Post #: 44

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 10:29:34 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Do you want me to take this knife and cut off my own penis pet?

if you do, I've got dibs on recording it... I can make some cash off "stumpy".

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

Post #: 45

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 11:12:47 AM

DecadentDesire

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

"He promised to always obey and I promised to never make him say no"

Very nice. I like that a lot.

_____________________________

I was once a Rabbit, driven Mad, by the Decadence of his Desires...

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 46

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 5:17:56 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Someone I really respect over at Fet before he bailed once said to me.

"He promised to always obey and I promised to never make him say no"

There's a lot of wisdom in that. I'm a hard ass with Carol when it comes to things that will improve our marriage, but I don't go out of my way to make her life misery. The hard things I ask her to do are for her benefit as well as mine... even if they are focus on me in the immediate sense. She knows that. I suspect it also helps to make it palatable that I hold myself to the same standards if not higher.

This is where longevity holds it's own.......but I'm not about to suggest that those things work here as day to day thing.

I can't imagine M ever saying that he'd promise to *never make me say no*...........sounds far too much like a challenge. But then, I never promised to obey either.

In fact, we never promised each other anything.......... gosh, how ghastly.

agirl

_____________________________

See how easy it can be?

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 47

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 5:30:45 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

In fact, we never promised each other anything.......... gosh, how ghastly.

You're such a rebel.

I don't expect him to never ask something of me that I'd have to say no to. Sometimes, God forbid, he steps on a land mine with me (ptsd), although that's quite rare these days. On very rare occasion, I freeze with anxiety. I don't say no, but I might say "I don't think I can do that right now" and I tell him what's going on.

Life throws shit at ya. I know he'll keep me from harm, and that's the important thing.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 48

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 5:40:46 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

OK Kana... I just gotta ask. What if the appropriate answer IS no?

~grins

Example please...

Did so-and-so call?
Did you have a good day? (while staring at a burnt dinner)

Almost any question you ask could get a "no", or a negative, response.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 49

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 8:23:28 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Being his slave I think I can answer these questions...

quote:

Do you want pizza for dinner?

He rarely asks me such questions but from time to time he will just because he might not be sure what he wants either. He knows exactly what types of foods I like and seems to even know when so this rarely ever happens. If and when it does though I usually answer with something like "sure" or "it's fine with me" or "not really in the mood but if you want we can".

Most times we usually just get whatever he wants. For example he likes Five Guys. I don't particularly care for burgers since I don't eat much red meat. We went anyway. There's not much to choose from on the menu there that isn't red meat lol...so I got what I thought would be a simple small burger. I felt awful for two days lol...but ya know I could have just as easily ordered a burger with nothing but the vegetables on it while he ate his burger that he was craving.

quote:

Do you want me to take this knife and cut off my own penis pet?

I would first look at him like he'd bumped his head or if he was on drugs. Once I'd gotten over the initial shock I'd cringe and say "If that's what you wish and desire Sir" and then close my eyes and hope and pray that he was just joking.

quote:

Did so-and-so call?

"I don't think so but let me check just to be sure. If he didn't do you want me to call/contact/do something else?"

quote:

Did you have a good day? (while staring at a burnt dinner)

hahahaha...he knows me well enough to not even have to ask this question. He can tell from the tone of my voice, my body language, etc....if I have. If he does ask this though I usually just growl a little and then ask him how his day was so that I don't have to get into a conflict with him and I don't take my bad day out on him. By my deflecting and asking him about his day I'm able to feel more helpful and of better use towards him which in turn makes my day better.

Master doesn't really like negativity so I do my best to not say "no" in any form. I try to find other ways so as not to bring it into our lives and make our lives a little sunnier everyday.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 50

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/27/2011 10:39:18 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I do my best not to avoid answers, even if they contain the word "no", as appropriate responses. Sometimes no is the only answer there is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 51

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 1:02:58 AM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

I do my best not to avoid answers, even if they contain the word "no", as appropriate responses. Sometimes no is the only answer there is.

Gotta go with that. Answering something like 'Did so and so call?' with anything but 'no', when you know perfectly well that so and so didn't call, just... no.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 52

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 6:39:50 AM

Kana

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Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

Oh Christ-you folks are splitting hairs. Of course she can say no to a basic question. I was referring to saying no to an order which is an entirely different deal-io.
And lemme say this-frankly I find many of the more far out suggestions here utterly ridiculous, which happens a lot in these type of forums. Someone posts something about not being able to say "No" and sooner or later, and always sooner, some smart ass pokes in and says something along the lines of "What if he asks you to cut your hand off.
I mean really, the whole idea is bloody ridiculous.

Know what? I'm a smart, rational reasonable human being-maybe, just maybe, being a smart rational reasonable human being herslef (You now, an end, not a means), that's what she choose me.

First, I ain't gonna do anything that can land me in prison. Second, damnitall, she a slave, and I also kinda love her, but ignoring that, if nothing else she's a valued and treasured possesion. Now I don't know about all you folks out there in cyberland, but when I have something valuable that I cherish, I take care of it-I don't deface it or wreck it. I don't piss on Monet's, vandalize museums and intentionally wreck Ferrari's and I certainly don't permanently maim slaves. I mean really, it's just absurd to suggest that I would do something as inane as suggest she take a flying leap off the Empire State building.
And if I did, so what? Fuck, she's gotta brain. I expect her to use it and tell me to fark off as she flees for saner ground.
Our relationship has simple rules (I'm a dumb bunny and a simple boy), one of which is that the door is always open-she can leave at any time. Cuz you know, otherwise it's called kidnapping and that's a class-A felony.
If a girl is idiotic enough to actually follow such a suggestion she should qualify for Darwin because really, the lot of us are better without their DNA in the gene pool.

Returning from my tangent.
Consider this. I'm the sort of man who thinks things through, analyzes the fuck out of everything, especially her. I know her inside and out (Ohhhhh do I ever), in some ways better than she knows herself. When I give an order it's not a random thing. It's something I've thought through, including the ramifications and how it will effect her. If I give an order that she will find difficult/against her nature/troubling for any reason, I will have thought real hard about that one and if I were to give a order that would truly violate her safety or value system you can damn skippy well bet your bipping ass that I will have expended a whole lot of thought on it. So yeah, I don't casually give directives and I certainly don't casually toss out things that could cause her to walk. hell, if it's something really important, we've almost assuredly discussed it ad nauseum. I know where she stands on the issue and why when I make the call.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 53

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 6:44:29 AM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
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i think Kana's onto something. =p

when i was new, my gut reaction was to say "what if he asks you to shoot yourself?" or any of those other questions.
but leadership wrapped it up quite well with his "she doesn't have to protect herself from me" statement.

maybe, just maybe, people in relationships get together and trust each other to the point where they already know how much thought has gone into the process of forming the order, they know they are being looked after, and saying "no" isn't necessary to them. maybe not all relationships end in a handless trainwreck at the bottom of a bridge. =p

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 6/28/2011 6:51:55 AM >

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 54

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 6:49:44 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Gesh Kana.... chill... I was being a smart ass when I asked!

I was suprised to see someone say they avoided saying it no matter what.

Sometimes no is an appropriate response.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 55

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 7:00:19 AM

DecadentDesire

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

In fact, we never promised each other anything.......... gosh, how ghastly.

You're such a rebel.

I don't expect him to never ask something of me that I'd have to say no to. Sometimes, God forbid, he steps on a land mine with me (ptsd), although that's quite rare these days. On very rare occasion, I freeze with anxiety. I don't say no, but I might say "I don't think I can do that right now" and I tell him what's going on.

Life throws shit at ya. I know he'll keep me from harm, and that's the important thing.

Both of you make good points. However, I (and I would venture a guess that leadership as well) were speaking more of a place from sentimental ideal and less of the practicality of day-to-day relationships.

Despite how much of an insult it is to by big bad dominant ego, I've had to remove the notion from my mind that the word "no" would not be involved in the development of a relationship.

< Message edited by DecadentDesire -- 6/28/2011 7:02:24 AM >

_____________________________

I was once a Rabbit, driven Mad, by the Decadence of his Desires...

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 56

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 7:08:57 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

I do my best not to avoid answers, even if they contain the word "no", as appropriate responses. Sometimes no is the only answer there is.

Gotta go with that. Answering something like 'Did so and so call?' with anything but 'no', when you know perfectly well that so and so didn't call, just... no.

wow... just for the record.... I have not removed "no" from Carol's vocabulary as a whole. That'd be ridiculous since she'd just pick another word to signify the same concept... as she would need to. I've removed rejecting a command as an option within our dynamic. I thought we were being figurative with the "no such thing as 'no'" statement.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 57

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 7:15:14 AM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline

Kana and Jeff...
But you have to figure while you are both very attractive sane members of this world.

There are men who remove no and make it a huge deal.
There are masters who would rather destroy their property then take care of it
I know ive seen MORE then my fair share of threads and even met relationships in real life where the Dominant partner doesnt take care, or even consider the S type in the relationship, they ignore their needs, they are down right abusive. I would bet that the reason your submissives stay in your dynamics, is because you arent abusing them. You arent breaking them and you are being the Men you portray yourself as here...

I followed my first owner to the ends of the earth and back, and have the scars to prove it. He didnt care about his belonging and it took a lot for me to leave that relationship. Im not stupid or nonsensical or anything other then someone that was deeply devoted and deeply in love with a man who preferred to abuse his partners.

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 58

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 7:16:07 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
maybe, just maybe, people in relationships get together and trust each other to the point where they already know how much thought has gone into the process of forming the order, they know they are being looked after, and saying "no" isn't necessary to them. maybe not all relationships end in a handless trainwreck at the bottom of a bridge. =p

You know this is one of my lines of attack when I'm talking to someone new to BDSM who may be a bit... uh... troubled that I have so much authority over Carol.

OK, I get why you're concerned. I understand the social issues from a feminism standpoint. I understand the personal issues from an abuse standpoint. But I think it's important to point out that all of your thinking and reaction is based on negative assumptions. Did you ever stop to wonder how it would all look in the opposite sense? What if I was a really good leader... the kind of guy capable of pushing his team to excellence and getting them to love it along the way. What if I loved Carol and nurturing, caring for, and loving her are the highest priorities in my life? What if my absolute power did not corrupt absolutely? Note I'm not claiming to be all those things, but if I was, would her decision to obey look so utterly foolish to you?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 59

RE: No such thing as "no" - 6/28/2011 7:29:14 AM

DecadentDesire

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Kana and Jeff...
But you have to figure while you are both very attractive sane members of this world.

There are men who remove no and make it a huge deal.
There are masters who would rather destroy their property then take care of it
I know ive seen MORE then my fair share of threads and even met relationships in real life where the Dominant partner doesnt take care, or even consider the S type in the relationship, they ignore their needs, they are down right abusive. I would bet that the reason your submissives stay in your dynamics, is because you arent abusing them. You arent breaking them and you are being the Men you portray yourself as here...

I followed my first owner to the ends of the earth and back, and have the scars to prove it. He didnt care about his belonging and it took a lot for me to leave that relationship. Im not stupid or nonsensical or anything other then someone that was deeply devoted and deeply in love with a man who preferred to abuse his partners.

I know your response was aimed at Kana and Jeff, but I wanted to throw my two cents in on this.

I'm of the opinion that removing "no" in the early stages of a relationship is a red flag. As other people mentioned, it takes years to get to the point with a person where "no" isn't allowed. However, until that point is reached, allowing "no" is a powerful tool in the dominants bag of tricks. Nothing clearly communicates a boundary like directly refusing a command with the word "no".

If your goal is to learn and understand a stranger's boundaries and not simply looking for some kind of toy to get off on, then the word "no" is too important to make off limits.

_____________________________

I was once a Rabbit, driven Mad, by the Decadence of his Desires...

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

Post #: 60

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