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RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/1/2011 2:28:06 PM

Marini

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I wonder how those that don't believe in a creator feel about all the planets in the solar system, the other galaxies.. these things just appeared out of thin air, just as the earth and all the creatures on the earth, and human beings, etc.

If you spent a couple hours of your life (more, if you're not too smart), you could have all those answers. That you've made it this far into your life and still not read about reality shows just how dangerous an unwavering belief in myth can be. You've blocked out any chance of learning, and therefore furthering your understanding of your own life, by claiming that the lies that were drilled into your head as a child are "The Truth"..... because they say they are.

You can't seriously think that everyone who doesn't share your beliefs is of the opinion that "everything just appeared randomly from thin air"..... can you? :(

I am really not sure what you are ratttling on about, but one thing I am certain of:

I have no idea nor would I ever even think about attempting to know what any other person much less everyone thinks, regardless of whether they share my beliefs or opinions or not.

I am not an expert on anything, I stated that I have never heard or read anything that explains what came prior to the big bang theory/black hole.

To each their own, and I am giving my opinion, no more and no less.

For someone who states "they rarely ever return to any thread", you are returning to this one a lot.
Feel free to add to the topic, "which is the different types of Christians in the world", but I will not be returning to this thread {as you have in your signature line} to argue with you.
Peace and Blessings

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/1/2011 2:37:55 PM >

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Post #: 181

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/1/2011 2:30:22 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
you are confusing "proof of" with "evidence for," using them interchangeably, and hence, erroneously.

I'm not confusing anything for anything. If you're confused, grab a dictionary :)
This thread isn't a debate about how to debate. Check the OP for the topic.

Then you're ignoring the points addressing the problems with your claim.

If the rules are that you're right automatically by your say-so, then this is just silly.

The rest of us will have to go by the regular guidelines.

I'm very clear on the difference. And in fact, there's no conclusive proof of. But there's quite arguably evidence for. Books and books of it, actually.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/1/2011 2:33:19 PM >

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Post #: 182

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/1/2011 5:36:29 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Begs the question. Fallacy #2.

Hint: Magical tea-pot and God are not similarly categorized, nor are their alleged attributes.

You need to try to make sense.

MM is making perfect sense to me.

To equate a belief in a God with a belief in a teapot revolving around Jupiter is simply nonsensical.

Agnosticism is one variety of freethinking. It takes no faith whatsoever to be agnostic - all it takes is a disposition to be persuaded by evidence/proof.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/1/2011 5:37:49 PM >

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Post #: 183

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/1/2011 11:32:30 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Cause and effect here is assumed as well.

Well, alright. But as it seems to me, only rhetorically. What I had in mind was a view of the universe as a dynamic holism in which particular events do not have particular causes, in which all events are connected to the fabric of the whole such that their arising is simultaneously contributory to and enabled by the evolving state of the whole.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/1/2011 11:49:51 PM >

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Post #: 184

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 12:50:17 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Cause and effect here is assumed as well.

Well, alright. But as it seems to me, only rhetorically. What I had in mind was a view of the universe as a dynamic holism in which particular events do not have particular causes, in which all events are connected to the fabric of the whole such that their arising is simultaneously contributory to and enabled by the evolving state of the whole.

K.

I'm not sure it matters either way. In this view, it seems to me that the difference in applications of cause and effect chains here is quite (ahem) arbitrary.

If one traces cause and effect, at what point does one start/stop? Won't those points be arbitrary because in the end, everything depends on everything else? Replacing causes with pre-existing (or preceding) conditions of possibility doesn't seem to me to change that much at all. Am I missing something?

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Post #: 185

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 2:50:23 AM

Arpig

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quote:

But there's quite arguably evidence for. Books and books of it, actually.

Books about this subject are pretty much useless as evidence. They are by definition merely opinions, based on nothing concrete, so really no different than any of the posts on this thread.

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Post #: 186

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 2:52:07 AM

Arpig

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quote:

EVERYTHING is caused by "something" other than itself

So what caused God?

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Post #: 187

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 5:10:26 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

If any of you knew what Christianity really is you would know that all Christians ARE the same.

T^T

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Post #: 188

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 7:57:10 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

But there's quite arguably evidence for. Books and books of it, actually.
Books about this subject are pretty much useless as evidence. They are by definition merely opinions, based on nothing concrete, so really no different than any of the posts on this thread.

Comes back to the difference between evidence for and proof of.

The first is easier. It's the lower bar used in civil trials.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 189

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 7:58:12 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Cause and effect here is assumed as well.

Well, alright. But as it seems to me, only rhetorically. What I had in mind was a view of the universe as a dynamic holism in which particular events do not have particular causes, in which all events are connected to the fabric of the whole such that their arising is simultaneously contributory to and enabled by the evolving state of the whole.

K.

I'm with you on this. I was going after the assumption that "something caused this" is iron-clad..especially deliberate causation with intent.

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Post #: 190

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 8:08:23 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Sadly, each of the over 38,000 variants of Christianity believes that their own variant is the only "true" religion (much like the many atheists who believe that only atheism is "correct" and any and all religions or spiritual philosophies are "wrong").

While it may seem that way there are ecumenical churches and others that do not believe their varient is the one true way.

My personal belief system is along the lines of many roads, one journey: inclusive of all faiths and beliefs (or non).

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Post #: 191

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 2:12:43 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

a dynamic holism in which particular events do not have particular causes

If one traces cause and effect...

Am I missing something?

You seem to be missing the bolded part of the post you're replying to. It is not clear to me how you can talk about following linear deterministic "cause and effect chains" in a non-linear environment, or why you would think the context doesn't matter.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 192

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 3:33:43 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

a dynamic holism in which particular events do not have particular causes

If one traces cause and effect...

Am I missing something?

You seem to be missing the bolded part of the post you're replying to. It is not clear to me how you can talk about following linear deterministic "cause and effect chains" in a non-linear environment, or why you would think the context doesn't matter.

K.

Thanks. I see where the misunderstanding arises now.

It's perfectly correct to say that the common understanding of cause and effect chains is that they are linear and deterministic.

I tend to think of them rather differently. I see them as selective and arbitrary. It's an axiom of knowledge that for any given phenomenon, there's a potentially infinite number of correct explanations. So privileging any single one as causal seems selective and arbitrary to me. Ditto with effects. There's also the questions of what is included/excluded to consider. Certain factors - be they seen as causes or effects - are always omitted while others may be unnecessarily included.

But I do accept that my view is very much the exception rather than the rule.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/2/2011 3:35:07 PM >

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Post #: 193

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 3:42:43 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

It's an axiom of knowledge that for any given phenomenon, there's a potentially infinite number of correct explanations.

Really.

Who's axiom is that?

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Post #: 194

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 4:16:22 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I tend to think of them rather differently. I see them as selective and arbitrary. It's an axiom of knowledge that for any given phenomenon, there's a potentially infinite number of correct explanations. So privileging any single one as causal seems selective and arbitrary to me.

I find it difficult to view causality and explanation as interchangeable concepts.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/2/2011 4:17:16 PM >

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Post #: 195

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 4:34:37 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I tend to think of them rather differently. I see them as selective and arbitrary. It's an axiom of knowledge that for any given phenomenon, there's a potentially infinite number of correct explanations. So privileging any single one as causal seems selective and arbitrary to me.

I find it difficult to view causality and explanation as interchangeable concepts.

K.

This is getting rather arcane. As we're both rejecting determinism I'm not sure there's much point to this.

However, if determinism is rejected, then claims of causality lose a little of their gloss, their status don't they? In the absence of determinism can causality be much more than an explanation?

From a post-modern perspective both are seen as narratives. Am I correct in suspecting that , while rejecting determinism, you would like to retain some notion of truth?

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Post #: 196

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 4:35:50 PM

Musicmystery

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Rejecting fate wouldn't negate cause and effect.

If I drop an apple, it falls. But not by fate.

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Post #: 197

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 9:11:34 PM

Marini

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Rejecting fate wouldn't negate cause and effect.

If I drop an apple, it falls. But not by fate.

I agree with MM and Kirata here.
You are either going with cause and effect or you are not.
I don't see it going both ways, because you have come to the point that you don't know what the cause is, so you just change the rules of the game.
If you believe in the black hole--big bang theory-- than you believe in cause and effect, it is not going to become "random" because you get to the point you can't continue to find or see a "cause".

lol
I enjoyed reading this dialogue and what an interesting conversation!

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/2/2011 9:24:00 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
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NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Post #: 198

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 9:28:57 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Rejecting fate wouldn't negate cause and effect.

If I drop an apple, it falls. But not by fate.

I agree with MM and Kirata here.
You are either going with cause and effect or you are not.
I don't see it going both ways, because you have come to the point that you don't know what the cause is, so you just change the rules of the game.
If you believe in the black hole--big bang theory-- than you believe in cause and effect, it is not going to become "arbitrary" because you get to the point you can't continue to find or see a "cause".

lol
I enjoyed reading this dialogue and what an interesting conversation!

I'm not too sure what MM is actually saying here. To me it looks like MM's position is pro-cause and effect as linear and deterministic. Kirata's position explicitly rejects this view. So I'm unclear whether it is possible to agree with both of them.

As I understand it, Kirata is questioning whether causality and explanations are interchangeable terms/concepts. I'm wondering whether that matters too much in non-deterministic understandings of things.

Like I said, just a tad arcane.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/2/2011 9:35:11 PM >

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Post #: 199

RE: Thousands of classes/types of Christians/Christians... - 7/2/2011 9:30:59 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

But it looks like MM's position is pro-cause and effect as linear and deterministic.

Not even close. In fact, I've disavowed both.

I'm pointing out an error in your logic chain, as noted in what you quoted.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/2/2011 9:33:16 PM >

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Post #: 200

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