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Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 6:35:58 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Two other posters recently offered a link to the same story: Jewish Dems losing faith in Obama.

Well, it's kind of a habit of mine to check something out when it surfaces repeatedly in my life. So I gave the article a look. It is indeed about Jewish Democrats who are having second thoughts on Obama.

What's interesting, though, is what the article is not about: the good of the United States. So far as I could see, the folks discussed in the article viewed Obama solely through the lens of whether he was, as one person put it, "OK for Israel."

That bothers me a bit. If you want to say, as my sister does, that Obama has been a "disaster" fpr the U.S., fine. But is it appropriate to judge an American president on the basis on how well he meets the needs of another country? Shouldn't the yardstick for an American leader be the needs and interests of the United States?

Thoughts?

Edit: Added "Israel" to thread title.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/30/2011 7:18:09 PM >

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RE: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 6:45:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		As one of those posters, DC, it simply reflects something that is important to a particular segment of the electorate. Those Jewish voters who make US policy regarding Israel a litmus test aren't really any different from any other segment that puts a particular special interest at the top of the list.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 7:07:15 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		I see your point about litmus tests, Heretic. Many of us use them. I've done so myself with gay rights. Yet it seems different somehow when the litmus test is the good of a whole different country, whose interests may not be the same as ours.

Edit: Added "Israel" to thread title.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/30/2011 7:24:18 PM >

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RE: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 7:25:29 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I see your point about litmus tests, Heretic. Many of us use them. I've done so myself with gay rights. Yet it seems different somehow when the litmus test is the good of a whole different country, whose interests may not be the same as ours.

It is different. But the difference may lie in your phrasing. Possibly they believe that support for Israel is in the best interest of the United States?

K.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 7:27:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Possibly they believe that support for Israel is in the best interest of the United States?


That's definitely possible.

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RE: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 7:29:12 PM   
Anaxagoras


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Status: offline 		Many people are influenced by foreign policy in their voting choice, not just in the US. Muslims overwhelmingly voted for Obama rather than McCain by around 90%, to a large extent due to his positioning on foreign policy.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 7:40:13 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Many people are influenced by foreign policy in their voting choice, not just in the US.


Good point.

quote:

Muslims overwhelmingly voted for Obama rather than McCain by around 90%, to a large extent due to his positioning on foreign policy.


Interesting. I didn't know that.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 8:11:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Hell, DC, some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone.

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RE: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 8:16:45 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I see your point about litmus tests, Heretic. Many of us use them. I've done so myself with gay rights. Yet it seems different somehow when the litmus test is the good of a whole different country, whose interests may not be the same as ours.

It is different. But the difference may lie in your phrasing. Possibly they believe that support for Israel is in the best interest of the United States?

K.

Yes. It is certainly possible to suggest that as a possible reason. Whether this reason bears up to scrutiny is another matter.

Personally I find difficult to see how a policy that automatically gets almost a third of the world's population implacably offside, immeasurably complicates access to vital strategic resources and gets virtually nothing in return except antagonism, terrorism and a seemingly endless drain on US taxpayer funds could be said to be in any one's best interests.

I've yet to hear anything positive that the US gets out of its relationship with Israel that's worth talking about - never mind justifying the huge price the US pays for the burden of its alliance with one of the world's most reviled States. What, if anything, am I missing?

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 8:17:29 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone. "

And a hell of alot simply didn't want McCain. No matter what.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 6/30/2011 8:18:39 PM >

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 8:55:35 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone.

Possibly they believed it was in the best interests of the country.

K.

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RE: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 9:25:16 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Many people are influenced by foreign policy in their voting choice, not just in the US. Muslims overwhelmingly voted for Obama rather than McCain by around 90%, to a large extent due to his positioning on foreign policy.


If you mean Muslim Americans voted for Obama because they were sick of being AFRAID of their president and other elements of THEIR government. You'd be right. Working in technology development (networking and software) I probably know about 50 Muslim Americans that voted for Obama and the ABOVE is what they almost universally stated as their motivation.



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 9:29:00 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

"some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone. "
And a hell of alot simply didn't want McCain. No matter what.


And given the nearly CONSTANT hysteria since the day the guy was sworn in, I'd guess that at least as many, perhaps more voted against him merely because of skin tone.


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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 9:37:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't expect you to guess anything else, Skippy. It's not like anybody could possibly think that handing that sort of power to a guy who had never held any sort of power before might be a bad idea, and God knows, it isn't like anyone could disagree with his basic ideas about how the world works, or the best way to address problems, right?



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 9:52:42 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I wouldn't expect you to guess anything else, Skippy. It's not like anybody could possibly think that handing that sort of power to a guy who had never held any sort of power before might be a bad idea, and God knows, it isn't like anyone could disagree with his basic ideas about how the world works, or the best way to address problems, right?


You are such a fucking phoney. I didn't say EVERYONE. So you are representing to us that a number of people that voted FOR Obama merely because of skin tone. But in the  same breath you are saying the opposite DID NOT OCCUR, IE- No white people voted against Obama on similar grounds. Keep in mind nobody singled you out.

"Hell, DC, some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone. "
- The Heretic



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 10:02:15 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Whatever Obama's merits and/or demerits may be, TheHeretic, it's clear that when it counted, the majority of voters chose to support Obama's "his basic ideas about how the world works", and his way to address problems. You'll get another chance to consider this issue next year at the same place - the ballot box. But this particular thread is about another issue.

Specifically the OP asks whether it's "appropriate to judge an American president on the basis on how well he meets the needs of another country? Shouldn't the yardstick for an American leader be the needs and interests of the United States?" The other country in this instance being Israel.

Perhaps you could be kind enough to explain why US interests ought to be assessed through the filter of non-US interests (or not, as the case may be). Or perhaps, to list the positives (if any) and negatives (just a few will do, I know there's heaps) the US gets out of this relationship for us. Or your view on why it's appropriate (or not) for Americans to put another Israel's interests ahead of their own ...... and how this might be construed as patriotic (or otherwise)......

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/30/2011 10:06:00 PM >

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 10:09:05 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Wouldn't the outcome of the election tell us where the majority were?



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 10:17:29 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Wouldn't the outcome of the election tell us where the majority were?


No, it would only tell us which side had more votes for which candidate.



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 6/30/2011 10:22:49 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Wouldn't the outcome of the election tell us where the majority were?


And clearly, since people of color represent nothing approaching a majority, then the largest number of people voting for Obama would in turn have been white.
Which is actually the case.
But that wasn't my point my point was that YOU SAID:

"Hell, DC, some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone. "
- The Heretic

And I said that there was equal reason based on some of the hysterical claims I've heard made, that at least some people voted against him based on race and probably just as many.



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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/1/2011 1:59:58 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Hell, DC, some people came out and voted for Obama for no other reason than his skin tone.


No one voted against him for the same reason.....eh Rich ?  If you are going to post about colour, at least be even handed.

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