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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/7/2011 4:32:38 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

tweakabelle

The neocon 'republicans,' our neoliberals and the corporate 'democrats' aims and those of the Zionist Israelis might be nearly identical but as for the rest of the US , no.

The United States is not nearly the monolithic bloc some people in other countries think.


Yes FQ, that sounds pretty accurate to me. If you recall, one of the main rationales advanced by the neocons when they first proposed their lunatic idea of invading Iraq was to that it would help Israel. The US paid a heavy price for that - in lives and in dollars.

Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In America's War On Iraq: 4,787 www.icasualties.org/oif/

Cost of War in Iraq & Afghanistan
Total Cost of Wars Since 2001
$1,217,420,676,102
http://www.costofwar.com/

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/7/2011 4:37:37 PM   
Aneirin


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Markings on aircraft are not needed, but the make and type of aircraft gives a clue, as if American designed and made aircraft, surely America knows who in the region they sold or gave the things to. A clue would be if the attacking aircraft were Russian, British or European, then as Israel flies predominantly American designed and built aircraft, it might not be them.

But how sickening would it be for a military unit to be attacked by machines designed and built by their own countrymen ?


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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/7/2011 4:48:52 PM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Markings on aircraft are not needed, but the make and type of aircraft gives a clue, as if American designed and made aircraft, surely America knows who in the region they sold or gave the things to. A clue would be if the attacking aircraft were Russian, British or European, then as Israel flies predominantly American designed and built aircraft, it might not be them.

But how sickening would it be for a military unit to be attacked by machines designed and built by their own countrymen ?

er, the Israelis, and the Middle East as a whole are pretty promiscuous when it comes to weapons. Recall the Persians are still flying F-14s. An unmarked military aircraft in the region could be from damn near any of the lot.

< Message edited by FirstQuaker -- 7/7/2011 4:50:20 PM >

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/8/2011 5:39:15 AM   
Moonhead


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Persians? Nobody's called Iran that for a long while now: the last time I recall was during the fuss over the fatwah on Salman Rushdie when Iranian students were using to try to hide the fact that they were from Iran.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/8/2011 1:27:10 PM   
Aneirin


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Persian though is the correct and ancient term, however, Persians are not Arabs

Persians are ethnically Aryan or Indo European, whilst Arabs are Semitic peoples.


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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/8/2011 1:30:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin



But how sickening would it be for a military unit to be attacked by machines designed and built by their own countrymen ?



It happened to American troops during both Iraq wars and Afghanistan.  Hell, we GAVE the shit to em.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/8/2011 7:28:02 PM   
Termyn8or


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"Persians are ethnically Aryan or Indo European, whilst Arabs are Semitic peoples. "

Most Americans don't understand that. They look all the same, "towelheads". Bigotry is said to learned, and while I am not so sure of that, who taught this particular bigotry ? Who is the enemy ?

T^T

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/9/2011 4:43:10 AM   
Aneirin


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H'mm, towelheads, well not much changed there, for it was rag heads when I was out in SA, but how stupid is it to derogatorily define a people by what they wear on their head as protection from the sun, and the sand blaster that is the wind. When in Rome do as the Romans do, interesting how many Western military units have adopted the towelhead headwear when operating in those regions, and I even believe the Shemagh is now on Nato stock issue.

But remove the towel/rag from the head and what do you have to define a people via their appearance, oo, I know, skin colour, is it that anything other than white is black or are different shades recognised and given an order of acceptance ?

Is the west still largely racist ?

But of the Ayran people, Ayran being where the word Iran comes from, people whom I believe prefer the archaic term of Persian and that because of what the German Nazi regime did to their identity, to be Ayran is not too pc these days despite the fact that the nazi ideal of Aryan and the Persian Ayran are two very different things.

But who are the Indo Europeans, well in their current homelands the political enclaves would be Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, they largely speak Farsi not Arabic,and the religion of Iran was Zoroastrian before the conquest of Islam, Islam being a religion not an identity, an identity the Persians despite conquest rejected in favour of their own ;

A short but insightful article on the Persian difference to the Arab

But can anyone tell the difference between the Arabs and the Iranians from their physical features ;

http://youtu.be/o73bjaMxqzo

I don't know about anyone else, but the Persians look very much like Europeans, their looks we see every day in the street.

But one thing that does perplex me about western interference in the Middle East, is why such support for Saudia Arabia and it's barbaric regimes, when it is the Iranians are not Arabs and even could be rejecting Islam and they also have vast reserves of that black evil we desire so much, but instead the western interests threaten the Iranians no doubt on behalf of the Saudis who wish to be the ultimate controllers of the oil. Or is it the American desire to protect Israel causes Iran to be an enemy ?

Furthermore, the lands where our countrmen spill their blood, Afghanistan, is yet another Persia type country country that has vastly different ethnicities, yet they are also yoked by Islam. Islam's fear I understand is dilution of belief via external influences and that is why it is the way it is, and there is some evidence, the hard line that it is now was not such in the past.

Islam and it's advocates I see very much like Christianity and it's advocates, they wish to keep the title and power they have been given, not give it up via evolution, they forget of course evolution evolves, so they try to remain in the past or even turn back time, no religion is immune from that ideal.


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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/9/2011 5:08:12 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

H'mm, towelheads, well not much changed there, for it was rag heads when I was out in SA, but how stupid is it to derogatorily define a people by what they wear on their head as protection from the sun, and the sand blaster that is the wind. When in Rome do as the Romans do, interesting how many Western military units have adopted the towelhead headwear when operating in those regions, and I even believe the Shemagh is now on Nato stock issue.

But remove the towel/rag from the head and what do you have to define a people via their appearance, oo, I know, skin colour, is it that anything other than white is black or are different shades recognised and given an order of acceptance ?

Is the west still largely racist ?


As you've already seen...you've got your answer.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/9/2011 6:07:30 PM   
Aneirin


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Yes, I wondered that, but I wonder even further, how do the blacks in the US military feel knowing that whitey might see them as inferior due to their skin colour 

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/9/2011 11:07:48 PM   
Termyn8or


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An, our military is largely comprised of people who had nothing else to which to turn for a decent future.

I am not discounting their service, their sacrifices or their honor. But the fact is that most of them enlisted because of limited opportunities elsewhere. Yes they risked their lives in service to the government and their buddies, but they saw that as serving their fellow citizens. The military is the best bet for an eighteen year old now and has been for years. Later they find out that they were chewed up and spit out.

I know of noone who supports cuts in veteran's benefits, but the government does it anyway. Most ex military people would never go back.

Think it's much better if you're Black ? And think back across about two decades or so.

T^T

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/10/2011 12:52:04 AM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, I wondered that, but I wonder even further, how do the blacks in the US military feel knowing that whitey might see them as inferior due to their skin colour 


Maybe 50 years ago, but today your commanding officer or the NCO's are as apt to be an African-American as anyone else.

Not that it might not happen off in some isolated plece, but it is very apt to cause a much larger circle then just the black folks hearing it to develop an attitude about the fools manifesting such thinking. And any thing along that line significant enough to attract the attention of the military ruling class is gonna get the one responsible some real Old Guard S/m.


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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/10/2011 4:54:16 PM   
tweakabelle


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Another lens for viewing Obama's performance in Palestine might be the Rachel Corrie incident. In 2003, Rachel was driven over and killed by a US-made IDF bulldozer while trying to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza. Her death is widely seen as yet another cold blooded IDF murder.

In 2003 Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon promised President Bush a "thorough, credible, and transparent" investigation into Rachel's death. Yet, it's taken 8 years for proceedings to come to court in Israel. Rachel's mother is deeply disturbed by the lack of support for her daughter and family, as she makes clear in this piece in 'The Guardian'.

I wonder why a US citizen, highlighting the inaction of the US State Dept and a foreign Govt about the death of her daughter, another US citizen, is forced to rely on the UK media to be given a voice. Does the US Govt value good relations with Israel over the lives of its citizens?

For that matter, people might wonder why the footage I have linked previously (showing an Israeli tank firing a shell at unarmed children*, and a settler shooting another unarmed Palestinian civilian^) hasn't yet been seen on their TV news or in their media. AFAIK neither of these events were reported in the Australian media (Given the lizard king owns 60% of Australian print media, that's hardly surprising)

^ http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e0_1228525098
* http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f6_1229896617

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/11/2011 2:01:31 AM   
Termyn8or


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"I wonder why a US citizen, highlighting the inaction of the US State Dept and a foreign Govt about the death of her daughter, another US citizen, is forced to rely on the UK media to be given a voice."

Unfortunately I don't wonder. I heard about it a very long time ago and it's clear why it took so long - most people have short memories here.

Actually I did read about it in the US media, but not the regular media. TheAmerican Free Press is villified all the time and attacked. Actually I am not really into their opinions, but many stories they print are right from API or UPI feeds. Both Ron Paul and James Trafficant write for that paper. Another of their writers is supposedly someone from the established media, but turned on them after he had had enough. They also publish alot of other things, like a section entitled "News You May Have Missed" which is almost exclusively stories not published anywhere in the major media.

You know how I like stories of little old Ladies blowing the heads off of would be robbers and the like, well they print them. They do print alot in the way of facts, it's just like anything else though, their opinions are not always accurate. They seem to take a dim view of almost everything the government does as do I, but sometimes they go a bit too far. That doesn't change the truth.

Trafficant has written quite a few interesting pieces about what went on in congress when he was there. Paul has more comtemporary information. Trafficant had alot to say about Israeli influence on this government, and alot about AIPAC, among a few other things. And if someone wants to call him a liar, fine. But bear in mind that they had him under investigation for about ten years, and he didn't use cash for anything. What's more all his phones were tapped for a long time and at his trial they didn't use one piece of it. Not one second of all those recordings. And that doesn't mean he had to be on the phone, remember how they got John Gotti ?

The creation of the AFP is another interesting story. That'll tell you all about "freedom of speech" in this country.

T^T

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/11/2011 4:55:10 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Persian though is the correct and ancient term, however, Persians are not Arabs

Persians are ethnically Aryan or Indo European, whilst Arabs are Semitic peoples.


Didn't realise that was what you were getting at. My bad.
The pashtuns in Afghanistan aren't arabs either, but for some reason there's less emphasis on stressing that at the moment.

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/11/2011 3:31:50 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Persian though is the correct and ancient term, however, Persians are not Arabs

Persians are ethnically Aryan or Indo European, whilst Arabs are Semitic peoples.


Didn't realise that was what you were getting at. My bad.
The pashtuns in Afghanistan aren't arabs either, but for some reason there's less emphasis on stressing that at the moment.


I know, that is why I say such things and give links where appropriate, for I believe there is a fair old bit of character assassination going on in the western world and it from my point of view, isn't healthy, as it seems those that educate the masses seem to want us to dislike people whom we have never met because they just happen to come from the region where vast sums of money is being spent, lives lost and no definable goal is even in sight.

The only thing in the Indo European countries that is Arab, is Islam and if one looks about, not all Indo European's are followers of Islam and where there are, people are getting a bit pissed off with what it seems to bring.

I personally believe Islam like Christianity is dying and what we are seeing with the increased religious fervour in Islam, is the last dying throes, as Islam was something very different in the past by many accounts, the hard line now, seems like people trying to rediscover their belief by taking it back to it's roots, which poses a problem in that what was then, is not now, so adherants are really guessing on what words written in the past which were perhaps well understood, then, need interpretation now.

The further one gets away from a thing, the more distant and hard to distinguish that thing will be, time is man's enemy.

The Arabs are Semitic peoples, just Like many of the Israelis, the only thing that divides everyone, is fucking religion again, can anyone tell me what was the initial idea for launching these entities that have come to be called religions, bring perople together, or give more reason to destroy each other ?


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? - 7/11/2011 4:13:46 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
The Arabs are Semitic peoples, just Like many of the Israelis, the only thing that divides everyone, is fucking religion again, can anyone tell me what was the initial idea for launching these entities that have come to be called religions, bring perople together, or give more reason to destroy each other ?

Neither. It's a tool of social control more than anything else. You only have to take a look at the way the Persians in Iran behave to see that...

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