RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch

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tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 3:35:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead The mujahadeen were a non uniformed force in conflict with a nation's army (okay, an invading nation's army, but still a national army) and unaffiliated to their country's government. How are they not terrorists? You might as well claim that the provos weren't during the troubles, either. Phew! For a moment there I thought you were taking about the Contras in Nicaragua. Then I realised you were talking about the mujahadeen in Afghanistan who overthrew that country's Govt (OK it was a shocking government, but a stable govt nonetheless) that was overthrown by a US-led international alliance that backed a non-government force.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 5:07:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead The mujahadeen were a non uniformed force in conflict with a nation's army (okay, an invading nation's army, but still a national army) and unaffiliated to their country's government. How are they not terrorists? You might as well claim that the provos weren't during the troubles, either. There was terrorist elements going back some years that made up the later mujahadeen when Islamicists challenged the government. The country went into open rebellion over the government which was sort of a puppet of the USSR. The mujahadeen challenged the government before the USSR came in. It can be debated but my point was that by the time the US was aiding the Afghans in a major way, the Russians were in effect an invading force essentially taking control of the country, having assassinated President Amin and launched a full scale invasion, to which mujahadeen regional leaders or war lords unified more so to fight back. By contrast the Northern Irish assembley and British govt was the de jure government to which the IRA was mounting an assault. Whether that was justified is another question but I feel there is some significant contrast between the two scenarios.

Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 5:10:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: the us isn't fighting for anybody but its own fucking self, don't be a twat, the us has never fought for anybody but the us. You seem to be forgetting a few world wars...but oh yea we just fight for ourselves...You are beyond common sense in this discussion so I am done with you. Butch Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 6:17:08 PM)
quote: Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie. Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan...how about your common sense…We gave 300,000 of our children to protect your soil…not ours. We could have sat back…let Germany kick your ass… then after you weakened them we could have stepped in and taken the whole of Europe…but no…we wanted to help our allies in their fight for survival. It was the sinking of a non-American ship that killed well over 1,000 citizens of Europe and only 128 Americans that convinced America to help YOU defeat the Germans in WWI... how about your common sense. After that tragedy we gave 53,000 of our children… We did not give token support then run with our tails between our legs like you did in Iraq and Afghanistan...We stayed the course to stand by our friends…thanks for nothing…PS… pay us back the money you owe for WWI. In both wars we were NOT fighting Germany to repel an invasion of the United States... we were fighting out of a conviction that our allies needed help fighting an aggressor and to save your homes not ours. Butch

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 9:59:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie. Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan... Might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on us....

Arpig -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 10:13:13 PM)
quote: Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan...how about your common sense…We gave 300,000 of our children to protect your soil…not ours. We could have sat back…let Germany kick your ass… then after you weakened them we could have stepped in and taken the whole of Europe…but no…we wanted to help our allies in their fight for survival. Actually no. As Panda pointed out, Germany declared war on the U.S., not the other way round. The decision to deal with Germany first wasn't based on any enlightened feelings for your allies, it was based on rational analysis of the military situation. Germany posed a direct threat to the U.S. in the shape of it's u-boats, and Japan didn't. As well, by the time the U.S. joined, there was no danger of Germany winning the war, Germany had effectively lost it a long time before, it was simply a matter of when the allies won it. neither the UK nor the USSR were fighting for their survival at that point in the war. quote: It was the sinking of a non-American ship that killed well over 1,000 citizens of Europe and only 128 Americans that convinced America to help YOU defeat the Germans in WWI... how about your common sense. Again, actually no. The sinking of the Lusitania was simply the event that was used to inflame the public and to garner support for the war, the real reason for the U.S. entry into WW1 is found in issues of global realpolitik and the Monroe Doctrine, specifically triggered by Germany's attempt to incite a war between Mexico and the US to keep the US occupied and to absorb a large part of the materiel that the US was selling to the Entente. quote: We did not give token support then run with our tails between our legs like you did in Iraq and Afghanistan...We stayed the course to stand by our friends…thanks for nothing…PS… pay us back the money you owe for WWI. As far as I know, we are still in Afghanistan. quote: In both wars we were NOT fighting Germany to repel an invasion of the United States... we were fighting out of a conviction that our allies needed help fighting an aggressor and to save your homes not ours. Actually no, you were fighting out of self interest. In the First it was due to economics and global politics, and the second due to the strategic situation. quote: how about your common sense. Screw your common sense, how about a little historical accuracy.

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 10:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie. Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan... Might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on us.... Well they only declared war on the US because their allies in Japan had started the war on the Commonwealth and the US. If it were not for Imperial Japan wanting to clean the Anglo out of East Asia, Germany would have been quite content with the status quo. Then there is the utter irony as expressed by Russians I have talked with, of the Stalin's Soviets rescuing their hated British enemies. And regardless of the UK's cultural; mythos, the Germans had done a pretty through job of trashing out the UK, it was only rest of the Commonwealth and especially Canada and Oz coming to their aid, along with the Germans stabbing their Soviet allies in the back that staved off utter disaster. They did not vainly call it a world war. And most to the history of the thing is a lot more convoluted then pop culture would have you believe.

Arpig -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 10:56:04 PM)
quote: Well they only declared war on the US because their allies in Japan had started the war on the Commonwealth and the US. If it were not for Imperial Japan wanting to clean the Anglo out of East Asia, Germany would have been quite content with the status quo. Actually no, Germany was developing designs for trans-oceanic bombers intended for use against the US before Pearl Harbour. quote: Then there is the utter irony as expressed by Russians I have talked with, of the Stalin's Soviets rescuing their hated British enemies. And regardless of the UK's cultural; mythos, the Germans had done a pretty through job of trashing out the UK, it was only rest of the Commonwealth and especially Canada and Oz coming to their aid, along with the Germans stabbing their Soviet allies in the back that staved off utter disaster. Sort of but not quite accurate. quote: They did not vainly call it a world war. And most to the history of the thing is a lot more convoluted then pop culture would have you believe. So very true.

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 11:15:40 PM)
Yes, they had their own atomic program too. Undoubtedly the plan was world conquest, but sending a few planes to bomb Halifax and Boston would have only been a token, much like the rocket attacks on the UK. We know now from the captured German plan that they did not even plan on WW2 starting until around 1945, but that the Nazi leadership saw how easy their conquests in parts of the EU were, and jumped the gun. Imagine fighting them with their planned fleet of 5 carriers, a whole slew of additional submarines and ships, and some of the things seen towards the end of the war as standard equipment. And yes, many Russians do think exactly along those lines about their role in the "Great Patriotic War" regarding the British, be it true or not. I even see commentary to that effect in English translations of their history and commentary on it. There was not much love lost between the British Empire/Commonwealth and the Soviet Union between the two World Wars or immediately afterwards.

Arpig -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 11:20:44 PM)
Much to debate here, however, it is not the topic of the thread, so we'd best let it lay. If you want to continue, then let's start a thread on this.

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 11:26:22 PM)
And from the BBC at the time on how this war declaring went on - "Then Adolf Hitler made his announcement at the Reichstag in Berlin saying he had tried to avoid direct conflict with the US but, under the Tripartite Agreement signed on 27 September 1940, Germany was obliged to join with Italy to defend its ally Japan. " And things like - "He accused President Roosevelt of waging a campaign against Germany since 1937, blamed him for the outbreak of war in 1939 and said he was planning to invade Germany in 1943. " (well he got most of that right) http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/11/newsid_3532000/3532401.stm The history of the parties to the Second World War and their thinking has been pretty well settled for some time. The US had did everything but formally declare war and turn the dogs loose on the Axis prior to 1941, talk about any supposed US neutrality was considered some sort of humor then and now.

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/13/2011 11:30:06 PM)
The victors try the losers as war criminals, that is about the point.

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 3:59:56 AM)
Arpig, perhaps it was my fault. Perhaps the OP should have specified Tony Blair, John Howard and all the other Prime Ministers who dragged their countries into the Iraq fiasco. I should have thought of it at the time but didn't. There was no intention to single out the US on my part - that was just the way the HRW Report set things up. If one of those other countries succeeded in prosecuting their PM responsible for participation in Iraq II, would that strengthen the chances of US investigations/prosecution? I'd dearly love to see Howard, the then Australian PM charged with war crimes and having to justify his decisions to a court of law. I should add that Howard's reasons would include the political imperative upon Australia to contribute to the Australian-US security alliance ie. Australia was following the US lead. One clear implication of this is that, at a very sigificant level, Australian participation had nothing to do with the situation in Iraq per se, the critical factor was the state of the Australia-US alliance.

Moonhead -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 4:24:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie. Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan... Might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on us.... There's also the fact that we paid you for assistance, of course. That Marshall Plan loan that only got paid off a few year's back? And that's without even starting on the fact that America did a lot better out of sectioning the conquered territories' assets than the UK did: all of the good shit in berlin was in the American sector. (W,e by contrast, got a Volkswagon factory and that was it...)

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 9:45:45 AM)
quote: Might have had something to do with the fact that Germany declared war on us.... Hi Panda Germany declaring war on the US has nothing to do with what I said…As I said before…We could have let the British wear Germany down while we used our full resources against the Japanese…Then it would have taken fewer American lives, if any at all to defeat Germany and fewer to defeat Japan. Germany did not have the capability to invade the UK at the time let alone the US in force. We had nothing to fear from Germany. The only reason we choose to fight in Europe was to save the UK from invasion period. We did not have to do it and it cost many American lives. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 10:06:08 AM)
Japan actually invaded US territory...Germany had less of a Naval capability than Japan. Germany was not a threat to us at all...The attacks in the Atlantic by U-boats were ships supplying the UK with food and war materials... oh I forgot we were only thinking of ourselves and were just pleasure cruising I‘m sure. Yes were worried about Germany’s influence In Mexico and South America but the American public did not want any part of wars in Europe. Germany had its hands full with the UK and Russia and was no threat to the US at all. The American people and FDR elected by them wanted nothing to do with war… we had no ambitions for world domination…what crap. You are getting as bad as real with your hidden agenda fantasies. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 12:02:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Bit of a wild claim Butch. Are you suggesting the US didnt join WW1 due to attacks on American shipping, or WW2 due to the attack on Pearl Harbour. You mentioned common sense but dont seem to have any. Dont even start me off on the WMD`s lie. Why then did we fight the Germans... FOR YOU...if we only fought who attacked us it would have been just Japan...how about your common sense…We gave 300,000 of our children to protect your soil…not ours. We could have sat back…let Germany kick your ass… then after you weakened them we could have stepped in and taken the whole of Europe…but no…we wanted to help our allies in their fight for survival. It was the sinking of a non-American ship that killed well over 1,000 citizens of Europe and only 128 Americans that convinced America to help YOU defeat the Germans in WWI... how about your common sense. After that tragedy we gave 53,000 of our children… We did not give token support then run with our tails between our legs like you did in Iraq and Afghanistan...We stayed the course to stand by our friends…thanks for nothing…PS… pay us back the money you owe for WWI. In both wars we were NOT fighting Germany to repel an invasion of the United States... we were fighting out of a conviction that our allies needed help fighting an aggressor and to save your homes not ours. Butch History and politics dont seem to be your strong point Butch, as per normal you let your jingoism get in the way of the truth. America declared war on Germany in WW1 due to increased German attacks on US shipping, as well as a German plan to support Mexico in a war with the US. The Lusitania sinking may have sowed some seeds but America didnt go to war until two years later, when more US ships were sunk. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/germany-declares.htm In WW2 Germany declared war on the US. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/germany-declares.htm You mentioned giving 300,000 of your children when you could have sat back. Likewise, so could we when Hitler wanted to make peace with Britain. Whats your point again ? As for paying people back, you still owe the French for your independence, so if you want to throw facts at each other, move out of the glass house. Regards your odious attack on British efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan you need to read up on exactly what the UK mission was. You are making yourself out to look more ignorant than usual. Allied troops, not just Americans are still dying there daily.

Moonhead -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 1:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The only reason we choose to fight in Europe was to save the UK from invasion period. We did not have to do it and it cost many American lives. Nope: the only reason you chose to fight in Europe was because the Soviets had more or less trashed the German armour and infantry, while the RAF had carried out an slightly less thorough demolition job on the Luftwaffe. If defending Britain had ever been an issue, you'd have involved yourselves in the European theatre before the retreat from Dunkirk, not during the Normandy landings two years later, after the war had already been won.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 1:26:32 PM)
quote: History and politics dont seem to be your strong point Butch, as per normal you let your jingoism get in the way of the truth. America declared war on Germany in WW1 due to increased German attacks on US shipping, as well as a German plan to support Mexico in a war with the US. The Lusitania sinking may have sowed some seeds but America didnt go to war until two years later, when more US ships were sunk. What an idiot link...you gave me Germany's reasons for war not ours....Why do you think American shipping was attacked?...Will because we were keeping you afloat in your war supplying materials...We were helping your country...The American people did not want to get into your war... But we decided to help your country from an aggressor. Germany was not going to invade the United States... We would have had no shipping attacked if we were not supplying war goods. The letter to the Mexican government was bullshit and only used as propaganda by Wilson because he thought we should help.....Your country. quote: You mentioned giving 300,000 of your children when you could have sat back. Likewise, so could we when Hitler wanted to make peace with Britain. Whats your point again ? The point is you did not do it and we saved your butts...because you were our ally… our friends…not for our benefit…It would have been wiser to let Hitler expend his army trying to defeat you while we gought Japan with our full might. quote: As for paying people back, you still owe the French for your independence, so if you want to throw facts at each other, move out of the glass house. We paid France...now pay us..hey imagine how long 400 billion would pay for our health plan. quote: Regards your odious attack on British efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan you need to read up on exactly what the UK mission was. You are making yourself out to look more ignorant than usual. Allied troops, not just Americans are still dying there daily. I appreciate your brave men and women that lost their lives fighting along side of our forces... I feel for them because the lack of will of your government and people to see the war through is a cowardly disgrace and they may have wasted their lives. Butch

mnottertail -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/14/2011 1:36:04 PM)
Uh, actually remember that coalition of the willing, Butch? They weren't all so willing cuz they all saw how fucked up the W administration had it all. Lotta armtwisting and deals made, to get them there, and goodwill tossed in the shitter by W et al, and when the US strongarmed them into over and above agreements, (like putting up with torture and so on, killing civilians, bursting into every house on the street and creating insurgents by belligerent, contumely and very unneccesary acts, when it wasnt going at all like the W administration had fantasized, they started boogying out the bayou, not wanting to go along tooth and nail for a fucked up miasma by the US, and getting painted with it.

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