RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch

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Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/17/2011 4:59:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead In fact, it's impossible to estimate the extent of Blair's fortune accurately as he has it all hidden offshore by his companies in a set of pisstaking tax dodges so machiavellan that they give the inland revenue screaming fits just thinking about them. Spot on..... tax loopholes need to be closed sooner rather than later. You have those on high wages paying the same tax as those on a pitance, avoiding paying pro rata by the use of tax havens and other dodges.

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/17/2011 9:30:31 PM)
Is it still possible under the law for private citizens to apply for arrest warrants for war crimes? IIRC, a mechanism of this sort caused Tzippi Livni, the Israeli Opposition Leader (and PM at the time of the Gaza slaughter 2007/8) to cancel her plans to visit the UK. There was talk of the law being changed in order to avoid repeats of this episode. Has this happened? If not, is there any reason why it can't be used against Bush the Dumber, Blair, Howard and the rest of the warmongers?

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 8:24:07 AM)
And cynics would wonder if it was entirely coincidentally how Blair managed to have all these shell corporations, and various offshore tax dodges suddenly available to conceal all this wealth that mysteriously fell in his lap.

Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 11:28:11 AM)
Tweaks, yes you can apply but a Judge needs to approve the warrant. FQ......Spot on about setting up companies although I suspect most MPs do so before they retire. It is easy to obtain an already registered company name for this purpose. Cherie Blair is a highly paid lawyer so would have the contacts to do this. Edited for typo

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 5:01:44 PM)
quote: warmongers Don't you think that warmongers is a little harsh...after all the war was a response to a provocation and a failure to follow established UN resolutions. If there is a warmonger in this mess it is the organization that killed 3,000 people. Now you have it right when you call the man dumb...and you may have a case when it comes to torture...and you may have a case that he purposely mislead the public but he did not start the war and that would be required for warmongering. Don’t let your personal feelings cloud your judgment. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 6:35:58 PM)
Well I don't know if I can let that go by Butch...the war engaged in as a result of 9/11 was Afghanistan .....going into Iraq had nothing at all to do with that infamous act.More readily explained by looking at Bush the you gets relationship with Bush the elder [8\|]

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 6:49:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: warmongers Don't you think that warmongers is a little harsh...after all the war was a response to a provocation and a failure to follow established UN resolutions. If there is a warmonger in this mess it is the organization that killed 3,000 people. Now you have it right when you call the man dumb...and you may have a case when it comes to torture...and you may have a case that he purposely mislead the public but he did not start the war and that would be required for warmongering. Don’t let your personal feelings cloud your judgment . Butch I was referring to starting the second Iraq war. Whatever justification there was for the Afghanistan adventure, none of that justifies the Iraq fiasco. It seems perfectly accurate to describe Bush Blair and Howard as warmongers in this instance. They designed executed and incited an unnecessary war for reasons that we all now know to be spurious.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 8:13:14 PM)
I have always agreed entering the Iraqi war was wrong...and stupid even if Saddam Hussein needed to be hung by his balls. I will not argue whether there was reason to invade but I will say that this was a very volatile time in history. America was demanding action …even if wrong. Saddam could have easily saved himself and spared his country the devastation of war if he had cooperated with the US and the UN. I believe Bush…and there is NO evidence to show otherwise…thought Saddam was in collusion with Al Qaeda. This even when his intelligence was telling him otherwise. I think Bush had lost faith in the CIA’s abilities. Mistakes compounded as he was feed bad information by his advisors who were not professionals. All this led to his erratic behavior as he was overwhelmed by world events. Looking back on the events we can see his mistakes in judgment and law but at the time I believe he was acting in what he thought was best for the US and had no desire to start a war for conquest or to rectify the mistakes of his father. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 8:29:18 PM)
When one wants to believe something.....it is far easier to dismiss contrary information and lend undue weight to questionable information. All that said it seems our only area of disagreement here is whether or not Bush deceived himself or the rest of us....either way it was a clusterfuck....by the way I do not agree with the statement the volatile times...use they were but a nation,particularly one that claims exceptionalism can I'll afford to jump into a conflict simply because they are "demeaning action ".This is not a justification for war...and we as a nation need to be better than that.

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/18/2011 11:07:06 PM)
quote: I believe Bush…and there is NO evidence to show otherwise…thought Saddam was in collusion with Al Qaeda. This even when his intelligence was telling him otherwise. I think Bush had lost faith in the CIA’s abilities. Mistakes compounded as he was feed bad information by his advisors who were not professionals. All this led to his erratic behavior as he was overwhelmed by world events. Looking back on the events we can see his mistakes in judgment and law but at the time I believe he was acting in what he thought was best for the US and had no desire to start a war for conquest or to rectify the mistakes of his father. Butch it's one thing to be generous in your assessment of Bush and his motives. It's quite another thing to try to exculpate him from the consequences of his own actions. Especially when there was plenty of advice around suggesting far superior options to those chosen by Bush. He chose to believe that Saddam was in concert with AQ, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Bush chose to appoint the officials who, you claim, mislead him. They didn't so much feed him "bad information" as feed him what he wanted to hear. He chose to surround himself with a clique - Cheney Runsfeld Firth Wolfowitz etc - who were all pro-war and had been for years. Bush chose to put himself in the situation you argue he ended up being a victim of. However, even if all that is ignored, and your claims are granted, the argument is not good enough. It's one thing for Joe or Sally Citizen to get into a situation where they are way out of their depth. It's quite another thing for POTUS or any politician in a leadership position. Presidents are supposed to avoid precisely that type of situation. If they end up in such a situation, they have no excuses. For all politicians in leadership positions, incompetence is an assessment of performance, not an acceptable excuse for failure. The behaviour of Bush, Blair and Howard towards Iraq can be most accurately described as warmongering. To me, warmongering by any one is unforgivable.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/19/2011 7:13:57 AM)
I think we can agree that President Bush was incompetent I think we can agree that he chose his advisors poorly I think we can agree that he stooped to the same level as the terrorists with torture and incarcerations. I think we can agree that he disgraced America and our ideals. But we will not agree on his motivations. Butch

RacerJim -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/19/2011 7:24:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I think we can agree that President Bush was incompetent I think we can agree that he chose his advisors poorly I think we can agree that he stooped to the same level as the terrorists with torture and incarcerations. I think we can agree that he disgraced America and our ideals. But we will not agree on his motivations. Butch I think anyone/everyone who agrees with any of the above is Kool-Aid impaired.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/19/2011 7:37:52 AM)
I think we can agree that history will be the judge...despite our opinions Butch

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/19/2011 8:51:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I think we can agree that President Bush was incompetent I think we can agree that he chose his advisors poorly I think we can agree that he stooped to the same level as the terrorists with torture and incarcerations. I think we can agree that he disgraced America and our ideals. But we will not agree on his motivations. Butch Butch, if we agree that Bush "stooped to the same level as the terrorists with torture and incarcerations", can you offer any reasons why he should avoid being held to account for this departure from accepted standards of behaviour and international law? Until this happens can you agree that the rest of the law abiding world will be justified in feeling aggrieved about the disgraceful behaviour of the US under Bush's watch?

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/19/2011 10:05:01 PM)
Well, Bush like Blair, gets a little more guilty the more you look at the matter. In defense of Bush, he was not in control of his presidency. The deer in the headlights look was more apt then many know. But they and he did also know there was no AQ presence in Iraq, for the US and the British had been trying to pay the AQ to cause trouble for Saddam and the Baathists for some time, and the AQ in Iraq wasn't even founded until 2003. If Bush himself actually knew this is the question, though his circle of minders certainly did, nobody will add either stupidity or ignorance to people like Rice and Cheney's list of purported flaws..Rice for instance had been advising her oil company on the political aspects of the area and Iraq in particular before joining the Bush team. But what was supposed to be a quick imperialistic oil grab and regime change to 'protect' the puppets installed in the client Gulf states, while providing an aircraft carrier to flog the Persians with became a quagmire when the Arabs took up rifles and explosives themselves. In short Bush can plead diminished capacity on the grounds of stupidity and well cultivated ignorance with some success, in lowing his criminal responsibility from co-conspirator to willing tool. However his duties as president were not to act as a rube in such matters, thus he is still responsible for the consequences of his deliberate and cultivated ignorance, And it was his administration, if he wasn't in command of the thing he should have been, nobody lets the captain of a vessel off the hook for some sidsaster, on the grounds the crew was really running things while the guy on the bridge was jsut some stuffed shirt.

Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/20/2011 2:32:52 AM)
FQ.... Any chance of a link backing up the following regards AQ. I think you are wide of the mark here. quote: But they and he did also know there was no AQ presence in Iraq, for the US and the British had been trying to pay the AQ to cause trouble for Saddam and the Baathists for some time, and the AQ in Iraq wasn't even founded until 2003.

FirstQuaker -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/20/2011 5:36:46 AM)
Where to begin with that request. So how far back do we need to look at the real relationship between what we now call the Al-Qaeda, the House of Saud, along with the other regional puppet monarchs, and the Anglo-sphere's intelligence services and just what all they (their proxies and mercenaries) have been paid to accomplish or attempt to accomplish? The grouping of Islamic fundies were supported early on to fight the Soviet backed Pan-Arab movements and dtates, and once the Cold War started ending, was kept tin support of brining down their Arab client states like Iran, Iraq and Syria. The earliest known paid attempt to foment trouble in Iraq was discussed during 'Shaylergate' and confirmed by French intelligence sources in their writings and disclosures, indeed is one of the main reasons the French stayed out of Iraq, was they had a better handle on just what was really going on then anyone else, along with better intelligence in the Arab world.. The French apparently did no think that was the earliest attempt. If you are really interested here is a source for you - http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Truth-U-S-Taliban-Secret-Diplomacy/dp/1560254149 The scheme in this great game played out during most of the last century was to install a client Anglosphere controlled monarch in each part of Arabia that had oil. Iran and Iraq fell out of the fold, something the oil criminals have tried to correct for years.

kdsub -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/20/2011 7:42:53 AM)
quote: Butch, if we agree that Bush "stooped to the same level as the terrorists with torture and incarcerations", can you offer any reasons why he should avoid being held to account for this departure from accepted standards of behaviour and international law? I believe you have misunderstood what I have been saying all along... My comments are not "if" he should be accountable but that the reality is he will "not" be held accountable in the US or in the international community...He and the US are just too powerful. The only possible consequence would be if the American public demanded a prosecution…but… the majority have no sympathy for murdering terrorists or their rights… so it will not happen. The international community don’t have the guts. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/20/2011 5:00:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker Where to begin with that request. So how far back do we need to look at the real relationship between what we now call the Al-Qaeda, the House of Saud, along with the other regional puppet monarchs, and the Anglo-sphere's intelligence services and just what all they (their proxies and mercenaries) have been paid to accomplish or attempt to accomplish? It seems from your post you are talking pre 9/11. No evidence of any activity other than with AQ in Afghanistan has come to light. As much as I dislike Bush and Blair I dont think there is anything to connect either with payments to AQ. I will try and get a copy of the book you mention to read but not many people in the UK take Shaylers claims seriously.

tweakabelle -> RE: Arrest Bush II for War Crimes - Human Rights Watch (7/20/2011 11:38:52 PM)
quote: The only possible consequence would be if the American public demanded a prosecution…but… the majority have no sympathy for murdering terrorists or their rights… so it will not happen. The international community don’t have the guts. Butch Yes. On this point we are in complete agreement. From my perspective, this thread is more about 'should he be prosecuted?' than will he be prosecuted. Sadly the only people who will make this prosecution happen are the American people, who are, as you point out, are unlikely to insist upon it. I wish I could report that we Aussies have more moral fibre and are going to prosecute Howard but am unable to, nor do I see this a likely event. However, none of this is going to stop me from arguing that these prosecutions should occur.

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