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RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 8:36:13 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Ok, I certainly didn't start out with a let's pick on Imperatrixx idea this evening but I can't help when reading these post to wonder just what you do for a living and why you are bent on some big brother concept providing for you. I suspect without looking at your profile from the other side that you must fancy yourself a slave or at least a submissive. If not you need to come out of the closet.

I agree that a level playing field of minimal yet effective regulations set forth and enforced by a well monitored (by the general populace) central government is important to stability and fiscal growth and while I would like to be smart enough to provide you with answers on this vast expanse of issues, I could only lend expertise to a few areas. So please understand I am not pretending to be some grand know-it-all.

I merely want to lend you a suggestion that was privately afforded to me a few years back and has truly pushed my thinking to the middle and made me actually consider the position of those that had at one time seemed like idiots to me.

Now this isn't directed at you, it is something that was mentioned to me in passing:

It is altogether possible that at any given time as many as fifty percent of the US population would determine you to be an idiot. Can that many people be wrong?

You can look at this and joke it off or you could examine the content of the message and maybe save us some money on the education budget.


Yes, it is possible for that many people to be wrong. In 2009, 57% of Americans opposed gay marriage. In 2011, 53% of Americans support gay marriage. The value of an idea isn't always reflected in popular opinion, especially considering a lot of US history. The government had to send in troops to desegregate schools...it's not something the majority voted for. Could that many people have been wrong?

Anyway...you're viewing social welfare as wanting to be taken care of, a submissive trait. But to me, social welfare is about wanting to care for others. Wanting to care for others is neither submissive or dominant...a submissive can want to care for others because they want to serve the people, a dominant can want to care for others out of a sense of noblesse oblige. But when viewed in the context of wanting to invest in the nation and fight economic inequality, wanting to bring the US up to the standards of many other civilized nations...to me it's a no brainer. How do you tell a working class family that loses their home due to medical debt "You clearly deserve this, if you'd been an accountant instead of a janitor this never would have happened."

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 8:36:18 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

I also agree that we need to bring manufacturing back. We're trapped in this cycle of low wage earners in the working and lower middle class buying lots of cheap stuff. It's incredibly destructive. Doubly so when credit cards are involved.



Excellent.................. This is our primary problem, with almost everything. Until you hear any and all politicians discussing how we are going to keep industry in America, promote globally responsible fair trade and not this charade of so called free trade. There is nothing wrong with trade, but trading with countries that place no importance on humanity and the environment as we have to here in America leaves the US at a major disadvantage, majorly.

You want jobs yet you have open doors to countries that have billions of laborers. With that many needing work, they will work cheaper. Yet you want to take and force more companies to leave the US to compete in the market place by raising minimum wage. I agree people should be well paid for hard work. But raising the minimum wage just makes it harder to compete and therefore makes even less minimum wage jobs available.

When they start honestly discussing ways to bring industry and manufacturing back to the US and put forth legitimate plans that accomplish that our tax base will have no where to go but up. And then none of the money problems we currently face will be that overbearing. But we should still address our spending problems or they will not go away. The US is a addict with spending and throwing money around like some big shot on the hill. And like an addict we will never kick our habits until we admit we have a problem, and admit to the correct problem(s).

Thanks for playing along tonight, your posts were open and helped me to process my thoughts, thanks again.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 8:42:54 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
The US is a addict with spending and throwing money around like some big shot on the hill. And like an addict we will never kick our habits until we admit we have a problem, and admit to the correct problem(s).


Exactly.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 8:59:53 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Ok, I certainly didn't start out with a let's pick on Imperatrixx idea this evening but I can't help when reading these post to wonder just what you do for a living and why you are bent on some big brother concept providing for you. I suspect without looking at your profile from the other side that you must fancy yourself a slave or at least a submissive. If not you need to come out of the closet.

I agree that a level playing field of minimal yet effective regulations set forth and enforced by a well monitored (by the general populace) central government is important to stability and fiscal growth and while I would like to be smart enough to provide you with answers on this vast expanse of issues, I could only lend expertise to a few areas. So please understand I am not pretending to be some grand know-it-all.

I merely want to lend you a suggestion that was privately afforded to me a few years back and has truly pushed my thinking to the middle and made me actually consider the position of those that had at one time seemed like idiots to me.

Now this isn't directed at you, it is something that was mentioned to me in passing:

It is altogether possible that at any given time as many as fifty percent of the US population would determine you to be an idiot. Can that many people be wrong?

You can look at this and joke it off or you could examine the content of the message and maybe save us some money on the education budget.


Yes, it is possible for that many people to be wrong. In 2009, 57% of Americans opposed gay marriage. In 2011, 53% of Americans support gay marriage. The value of an idea isn't always reflected in popular opinion, especially considering a lot of US history. The government had to send in troops to desegregate schools...it's not something the majority voted for. Could that many people have been wrong?

Anyway...you're viewing social welfare as wanting to be taken care of, a submissive trait. But to me, social welfare is about wanting to care for others. Wanting to care for others is neither submissive or dominant...a submissive can want to care for others because they want to serve the people, a dominant can want to care for others out of a sense of noblesse oblige. But when viewed in the context of wanting to invest in the nation and fight economic inequality, wanting to bring the US up to the standards of many other civilized nations...to me it's a no brainer. How do you tell a working class family that loses their home due to medical debt "You clearly deserve this, if you'd been an accountant instead of a janitor this never would have happened."


Actuallly I have never seen a person loose their home to medical debt.... I've seen where they gave up because of a huge mountain of debt facing them and their not knowing for sure how to deal with situations such as this left them throwing in the towel. That old adage that as long as you are making an effort will hold creditors at bay. The Government also already has systems to help people threw debt problems. Creating a system that only inspires a greater dependancy is not the answer in my view. I do believe that we should have avenues to assist those in need; but to forced charity is not the responisble or effective solution. Bigger problem than we going to be able to highlight here though.

Take the banking and home owners crisis. You, I suspect believe that our tax dollars should help those poor people that can't afford the homes they bought that were in effect, most likely out of their price range. So someone like myself that has a house that isn't all that fancy, isn't in community that is seen as "high dollar or uptown". But my wife and I can fix it up, maybe remodel or build new when we actually can afford it, should be punished by having to make our own payments, but yet listen to all this talk about higher taxes because we're broke due to overspending. Wait I'm seeing a pattern here, aren't you?

I actually work very hard, I'd like an easy fix, but I sure don't think you or anyone else should have to finance my life, i just expect a fair shake and know that with that I can do well.

But I agree that we need to take a real look at our health care problems that, by the way I don't believe "O's" health care mess did one thing to repair. I see my insurance rates rising and the stock I bought in health companies at the time he signed that bill to law growing more steadily than my oil stock. Interesting don't you think.

I get your fight.... I'm a social Liberal myself, always have been, but I refuse to buy the talking points anymore, the Capitol Switchboard is on my speed dial and both my Senator and House Rep most likely know my number by heart, well at least their interns do. I'm for less regulation, I think its all the regulations that have us in trouble as it is. There was another group of very liberal thinkers that once before dared to fight for smaller government. I'm sure glad they did.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/16/2011 9:02:53 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 9:03:53 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

June 05, 2009
By Theresa Tamkins

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

For home loss stories, hit Google. Here's the first link from my search:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6252214.html

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/16/2011 9:07:49 PM >

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 9:25:52 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

June 05, 2009
By Theresa Tamkins

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH


Did Obamacare actually address this?

You are correct MM, there is a problem here. When medical bills drive a family or even just an individual to loss or bankruptcy we often enough create another financial problem for our tax rolls, a welfare problem.

We need to address this problem directly, but national health care isn't going to solve it. I suspect the assumption is that if we have a single payer system, the government, that all these bankruptcies will go away. I don't think it will, but what else will be the side effect. Corruption seems to be one of the single biggest problem in health care, in Medicare, or so they say. Supposedly this is what drives up cost, I also believe that piles of regulations inspire a good deal of problem and expense. In any event will this single payer option solve these problems or simply make it worse? Since I believe it will make it worse the issue will no longer be just a family facing bankruptcy, but rather the entire country.

It seems that we may need to evaluate bankruptcy law and determine if crippling a families ability to survive without massive government assitance is actually the beneficial route, medical issues or not. He who is able to care for himself often does. Hell we can always hire more judges to oversee just and equitable financial solutions in bankruptcies. Maybe by making more attorneys into judges equals less lawyers out struggling to advance frivolous lawsuits that in turn raise insurance rates making it less affordable for us all.

See.......If we could only pay for better education then we might one day find someone smart enough to resolve our tribulations.



< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/16/2011 9:29:31 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 9:30:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

June 05, 2009
By Theresa Tamkins

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

For home loss stories, hit Google. Here's the first link from my search:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6252214.html


If you have a competent attorney you will never lose your house to a bankruptcy, and medical bankruptcies have minimal impact on credit availability if youre paying the rest of your bills after 2 years.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 9:47:23 PM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		"They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness."

Perhaps 62% of bankruptcies has some medical debt, but that is different than 62% of bankruptcies were because of medical debt. They cannot take your home over medical debt and it is not reported the same as other defaults on your credit report. Personally, I would not mortgage my home to pay medical debt, that just puts my house up for grabs. Illnesses can cause income loss, and often disability does not make up the loss. However, once recovered, one can work out a plan, if feasible.

I think bankruptcy is a bad decision over $5,000 medical debt. Even I can pay $5k over the course of 7 years.



(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 10:34:23 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

You are right that there will always be a difference between successful and unsuccessful. But I thought what you were aiming for was a strong middle class, not a way to facilitate the rich getting rich.

There's two ways to see welfare - one is the robin hood idea, taking from the rich to give from the poor. The other, though, cuts closer to the actual meaning of the word welfare - well being. It's the idea that there is a general sense of well being that citizens of a nation are afforded.

If you look at Nordic countries, the welfare system is set up to benefit the middle class. Things like healthcare, child care, caring for the elderly, etc. are not things that they subsidize for the poor because they can't afford it, but rather things that they offer to all of their citizens so their middle class doesn't have to worry about them. The rich, of course, can afford private health care, private day care, private retirement homes, but the point is that the average person on the street (not the poor, homeless drug addict that you so despise, but the average family with the receptionist mother and the laborer father) feels a sense of general security and welfare in their existence.


Here is the problem I have with what you have written above.  A strong middle class is one that works, thrives and determines its own future.  It is not a middle class that is cared for like a pet of a nanny state.  In the U.S. there are 47% of the population that do not pay Federal Income Tax.  Ok...they pay it but they get it returned to them; the difference, if any, is negligible.  I work 3 jobs.  There are two pieces of property that are LLC's and then there is the law office.  There are people up my ass morning, noon and night.  If I allowed people to call at 2:00 o'clock, a.m., I would have my staff work 24 hours per day.  Why do I do that?  I do it because I enjoy the life I am able to afford myself in a free society.  I enjoy the clothes I wear, I enjoy the car I drive, I enjoy the art on my walls, I enjoy investing.  I pay 100% of my health insurance with no contribution from anyone.  I do not get a pension.  My pension is what I am able to create for myself.  Now...tell me why, in an allegedly free society, that I should be equalized with people that don't do what I do?  I don't want your cradle to grave services provided for me.  I will buy my own, thank you.  I don't want your clothing allowance. The clothes I am able to buy in your yoked system of collective slavery isn't the clothing I would want to wear anyway.  I don't want to drive the car that my meager 10% that is left to me will allow me to drive.  I don't want the rationed health care I am going to get in your system when I can get anything I want with my private plan.  No...I am a free man. I live and die by my decisions and my worth ethic and you should too.  Isn't that fair?  Really, Imperatrixx, is it fair for me, who works as hard as I work and earn what I earn, to be equalized with someone that doesn't work 30% as hard and doesn't earn 30% of what I earn?  Is that fair?  And if I am going to be equalized that way, why should I continue to do what I do?  Why shouldn't I surrender to the reality that I have no freedom and work no harder than that other guy?   And, imperatrixx, I am NOT rich.  Nowhere near it.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/16/2011 10:45:10 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

A lot of what needs to be changed is the get rich/cut costs mentality. Illegal immigration for example - there are always going to be illegal immigrants...but compare the difference between the US and, say, Australia. Mexican immigrants crossing the border into the US would be comparable to the people coming by boat to Australia. The difference, though, is that in Australia they try to claim asylum. In the US, they just get a job under the table. Because there are so many people willing to hire them for less than the already shockingly low US minimum wage, so many people who are happy to get a maid or a tradesman for below market value. The idea of 'hiring American' is going the way of 'buying American' and hiring illegal immigrants is like shopping at Wal Mart. You know you shouldn't but it's sooooooo cheappppppp.


And here's the problem I have with what you have said above.  The difference between Australia and the United States if FAR greater than what you have highlighted.  CONSERVATIVE estimates of the number of illegals in this country are 20 million and that figure was from '07 or '08.  Lots of kids have been born since then.  That is one difference.  Australia has not had an influx of 20 million illegals unless you can show me otherwise.  Australia is fighting border battles with the country where the illegals come from...the U.S. is.  It isn't so easy to leave Australia once you get in.  Illegals pass in an out of this country like water through a colander.  What services does Australia provide to people that claim asylum but that claim is rejected?  Because in the United States, it doesn't matter whether you are claiming asylum or not, you are going to get free medical care, free education, free police-fire-sanitation services and a myriad of other benefits.  Does Australia do that?  Frankly, I don't think you can credibly compare to the two countries when it comes to illegal immigration.

Lastly, I am sure I have hired illegal immigrants.  I have hired the guys hanging out at the train station to do grunt work and I doubt they were all American citizens.  But I will tell you this, please don't talk to me about people hiring them for below minimum wage; they won't work for less than $10.00 per hour....cash-ola!

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 2:16:06 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps 62% of bankruptcies has some medical debt, but that is different than 62% of bankruptcies were because of medical debt.
Well, in Canada, and most of the rest of the western world, 0% of bankruptcies are because of medical debt. Just something to consider.

(in reply to yummee)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 2:32:39 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:



...Lastly, I am sure I have hired illegal immigrants.  I have hired the guys hanging out at the train station to do grunt work and I doubt they were all American citizens.  But I will tell you this, please don't talk to me about people hiring them for below minimum wage; they won't work for less than $10.00 per hour....cash-ola!




then you really need to work on your negotiation skills and worse you are breaking the law. Don't ever complain about illegal immigration or unemployment again, people like you are the problem.

You are scum. You are not a patriot, you are a pinhead.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/17/2011 2:33:26 AM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 2:38:09 AM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Here is the problem I have with what you have written above.  A strong middle class is one that works, thrives and determines its own future.  It is not a middle class that is cared for like a pet of a nanny state.  In the U.S. there are 47% of the population that do not pay Federal Income Tax.  Ok...they pay it but they get it returned to them; the difference, if any, is negligible.  I work 3 jobs.  There are two pieces of property that are LLC's and then there is the law office.  There are people up my ass morning, noon and night.  If I allowed people to call at 2:00 o'clock, a.m., I would have my staff work 24 hours per day.  Why do I do that?  I do it because I enjoy the life I am able to afford myself in a free society.  I enjoy the clothes I wear, I enjoy the car I drive, I enjoy the art on my walls, I enjoy investing.  I pay 100% of my health insurance with no contribution from anyone.  I do not get a pension.  My pension is what I am able to create for myself.  Now...tell me why, in an allegedly free society, that I should be equalized with people that don't do what I do?  I don't want your cradle to grave services provided for me.  I will buy my own, thank you.  I don't want your clothing allowance. The clothes I am able to buy in your yoked system of collective slavery isn't the clothing I would want to wear anyway.  I don't want to drive the car that my meager 10% that is left to me will allow me to drive.  I don't want the rationed health care I am going to get in your system when I can get anything I want with my private plan.  No...I am a free man. I live and die by my decisions and my worth ethic and you should too.  Isn't that fair?  Really, Imperatrixx, is it fair for me, who works as hard as I work and earn what I earn, to be equalized with someone that doesn't work 30% as hard and doesn't earn 30% of what I earn?  Is that fair?  And if I am going to be equalized that way, why should I continue to do what I do?  Why shouldn't I surrender to the reality that I have no freedom and work no harder than that other guy?   And, imperatrixx, I am NOT rich.  Nowhere near it.



Because...the things I'm talking about "equalizing" are things like health care and care of the elderly, not having everyone wear the same clothes and drive the same cars.

Your post basically boils down to saying that you are opposed to living in a society where sick people get medical treatment because you might not be able to afford a luxury car.

The weird thing is, when I lived in the US I was able to understand that point of view. Now, it just seems selfish and cruel to say that some people deserve to be sick because they can't afford to get well. I can't understand it anymore. It's like you have absolutely no concept of being a part of something greater than yourself. Like you think that America is the greatest country in the world because being American means absolutely nothing...you're just some guy, on a piece of land, with some other guys, in a winner takes all competition with each other.

Oh well. Good luck with everything.

< Message edited by imperatrixx -- 7/17/2011 2:45:58 AM >

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 2:40:49 AM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Lastly, I am sure I have hired illegal immigrants.  I have hired the guys hanging out at the train station to do grunt work and I doubt they were all American citizens.  But I will tell you this, please don't talk to me about people hiring them for below minimum wage; they won't work for less than $10.00 per hour....cash-ola!



You say "the flow of illegal alien migration into this country must be stopped 100%" and yet you can't be fucked checking the legal status of your employees?

How can you not realize that you are exactly what you are against?

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 2:50:26 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Perhaps 62% of bankruptcies has some medical debt, but that is different than 62% of bankruptcies were because of medical debt.
Well, in Canada, and most of the rest of the western world, 0% of bankruptcies are because of medical debt. Just something to consider.


That is not entirely stating the case correctly , while nobody normal goes bankrupt from the medical bills north of the border, there are plenty of Canadians whose wages lost and or income due to illness or injury have them in bankruptcy.

All the free medical care in the world will not cover lost wages. Admittedly the third major cause of bankruptcy in the Dominion is in fact medical problems -

"The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America." - http://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada.htm

I see the same is said for Australia, i.e. job loss due to injury or illness is a source of bankruptcy there.

So no, public health care doesn't solve this problem entirely. There is as yet, no magic wand that keeps those ill or injured out of bankruptcy or off the dole.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 7:46:37 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Money is not the problem with the education system.


This is what I like to see Willbeur, providing proof of your argument.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 7:50:09 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I would not mortgage my home to pay medical debt, that just puts my house up for grabs.


You might if a loved one needed treatment you couldn't afford. The ER is only going to treat immediate emergencies.

(in reply to yummee)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 7:56:23 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

CONSERVATIVE estimates of the number of illegals in this country are 20 million and that figure was from '07 or '08. Lots of kids have been born since then.


That's the trouble with just making up your data--it's wrong.

You can huff and puff at these numbers, of course. But the point is, no, conservative estimates are much lower than your figure.

By HOPE YEN
The Associated Press
updated 2/1/2011

WASHINGTON — A new study released Tuesday finds the number of illegal immigrants living in the U.S. last year was roughly 11.2 million, a number virtually unchanged from 2009. In that year, the level of illegal immigration declined for the first time in two decades, dropping 8 percent from 2007, as a sour economy and stepped-up border enforcement made it harder or less desirable for undocumented workers to enter from Mexico.

The number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. labor force also was unchanged last year at 8 million, representing about 5 percent of workers in the U.S., after hitting a peak of 8.4 million in 2007, according to the nonpartisan Pew Hispanic Center.

quote:

Australia is fighting border battles

Australia illegal immigration is more complex than you describe, with the government setting policies aimed at steering illegals' behavior into the labor force (for good or ill). Here's a short Economist piece about it.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/05/immigration_0

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/17/2011 8:01:55 AM >

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 8:18:31 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Because...the things I'm talking about "equalizing" are things like health care and care of the elderly, not having everyone wear the same clothes and drive the same cars.

Your post basically boils down to saying that you are opposed to living in a society where sick people get medical treatment because you might not be able to afford a luxury car.

The weird thing is, when I lived in the US I was able to understand that point of view. Now, it just seems selfish and cruel to say that some people deserve to be sick because they can't afford to get well. I can't understand it anymore. It's like you have absolutely no concept of being a part of something greater than yourself. Like you think that America is the greatest country in the world because being American means absolutely nothing...you're just some guy, on a piece of land, with some other guys, in a winner takes all competition with each other.

Oh well. Good luck with everything.


And you can over simplify it that way if you want to.  I look at it from the standpoint that 53% of the United States ALREADY carries the bulk of the freight for the other 47%.  Pardon me if I don't want to pay more in addition thereto.  You are right in the sense that I don't want to be more involved in rowing the boat than the sniggering loser sitting across the aisle that is barely rowing at all.  Maybe he isn't rowing because he is lazy and not putting his back into it.  Maybe he isn't rowing because he is a fucking moron who has learned how to row after all of these years.  Whatever.  It doesn't matter.  I ALREADY pay much more than he EVER will. 

So...you are right.  I don't want to be a part of this greater.....whatever.....of which you speak.  I work, I pay taxes, a portion goes to medicare that I cannot yet participate in because I am too young.  That's plenty...thank you.  OH...and I have traveled Europe and I don't want to live like my friends in London....4 to a flat....no thanks.  Nor do I want to live like my friends in Slovakia or Romania or Hungary.  If that is the way I am going to live....don't look for me in the law office.  Look for me in the cafe.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: If you want to cut education spending, but not mili... - 7/17/2011 8:24:51 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Lastly, I am sure I have hired illegal immigrants.  I have hired the guys hanging out at the train station to do grunt work and I doubt they were all American citizens.  But I will tell you this, please don't talk to me about people hiring them for below minimum wage; they won't work for less than $10.00 per hour....cash-ola!



You say "the flow of illegal alien migration into this country must be stopped 100%" and yet you can't be fucked checking the legal status of your employees?

How can you not realize that you are exactly what you are against?


Jesus, man...USE YOUR HEAD!!!  Don't be like DopiGuy, ok?  I'm not the U.S. government that has the money and resources to enforce border security and doesn't.  I live in a city that touts itself as a "Sanctuary City".  Understand?  Do YOU understand what I am saying right now???  So if my Federal Government is going to ignore their responsibility and if my own town is going to ignore the law as well, what do you think, son????  You think I am going to be the bulwark against illegal immigration?  Does that even make sense to you?  I have a 60 yard ditch that has to be dug. THAT is my reality. There are people in my town willing to do it.  The cops drive by and ignore them.  The mayor drives by and ignores them.  There is a court in town but the Judge ignores them too.   And I am supposed to say "well...I don't know whether they are legal or not so I won't hire them and get my ditch dug today for $10.00 per hour and a six pack of beer?  Are you kidding me?  What do you do for a living because it isn't business.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 7/17/2011 8:42:33 AM >

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 80
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