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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 4:43:17 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Don't you? I do. All the time. Rarely financially, but people talk about how happy it makes them, how turned on they get, how much pleasure and satisfaction they derive from it, how it gives their lives direction, gives them feelings of security and safety...


People get happy giving presents, does that mean they didn't give a present, or that the gift of a present wasn't a gift because they enjoyed giving it?

I hate this turn in discussion, because for some reason people get passionately attached to their opinions regarding submission and giftdom... I am with NV... who the fuck cares already

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 4:43:43 PM   
BKSir


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Status: offline 		Wootywoot! Freckled gingers! I'm glad you don't like them Domi, more for me! Unfortunately Lady C. is... well... Lady. :( Back to the drawing board.

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 4:49:42 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
But on the other hand I don't think I'd ever see helping my own mum out as giving her a gift. I help her because I love her, so seeing her happy makes me happy. When it comes down to it it's not really altruistic.


Indeedies!

I think we're making a category mistake, here: we need to talk about D/s not in comparison to a monetary exchange, but in terms of kinds of affection, or even love. If my GF loves me, then I may feel that as a gift and even say as much. But if *she* feels it as a gift to me . . . then I should imagine that most would say it doesn't qualify as love at all.


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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:01:23 PM   
Hisprettybaby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainObjectForUse
I read a post somewhere online, where a member, or former member made a peculiar statement:

- " there is always a level of fake in the submissive's intentions! "

I was wondering what people make of this?

I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at. It's true that a person would not submit if s/he was not getting something out of it. I mean, when I submit to Daddy, I enjoy the way it makes me feel. It makes me feel good. Feeling good = my payback. But, by the same token, he gets a payback from being Dominant too. He loves the power, the control, and how it makes him feel. The power/control and how it makes him feel = his payback.

I don't think anyone Dominates or submits because they hate it. Do they? I mean, I've never heard either a Dominant or submissive say they do what they do because they hate it and it makes them feel crappy. Now, if someone told me that, then that would be fake in my mind. They do it because they want to. Actual slavery is against the law, at least in this country, so even those s-types who call themselves slaves are doing it because they want to.

~edited to add~ For that matter, Daddy considers my submission as a gift to him. BUT I also consider his Dominance of me a gift from him to me. His Dominance allows me to submit to him, and my submission allows him to Dominate me. But, on the other hand, are they really gifts at all? It's more like his Dominance and my submission complement each other.

~Hisprettybaby~

< Message edited by Hisprettybaby -- 7/17/2011 5:06:34 PM >

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:15:55 PM   
DecadentDesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
People get happy giving presents, does that mean they didn't give a present, or that the gift of a present wasn't a gift because they enjoyed giving it?


Hell, no. After all, it's only a twue present if the present giver suffers every possible waking minute of their existence and receives absolutely zero joy from the act. It's the only way we can feel secure that they are a twue present giver, and not one of those fake present givers who dares to selfishly indulge in a little personal happiness in any form.

That's my philosophy to submission. I plan on taking their gift and stomping it into the ground with my foot every second of the day to ensure they aren't commiting the crime of experiencing happiness in my relationship.


< Message edited by DecadentDesire -- 7/17/2011 5:18:03 PM >

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:23:43 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire
Hell, no. After all, it's only a twue present if the present giver suffers every possible waking minute of their existence and receives absolutely zero joy from the act. It's the only way we can feel secure that they are a twue present giver, and not one of those fake present givers who dares to selfishly indulge in a little personal happiness in any form.


True. From such reasoning you can go the entire Machiavellian route and claim that no-one, anywhere, does anything for unselfish reasons. It's *all* about self-gratification. A kind of reasoning, and ethics, much favoured by the more philosophical kinds of psychopaths, so I've heard.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/17/2011 5:24:40 PM >

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:28:27 PM   
DecadentDesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire
Hell, no. After all, it's only a twue present if the present giver suffers every possible waking minute of their existence and receives absolutely zero joy from the act. It's the only way we can feel secure that they are a twue present giver, and not one of those fake present givers who dares to selfishly indulge in a little personal happiness in any form.


True. From such reasoning you can go the entire Machiavellian route and claim that no-one, anywhere, does anything for unselfish reasons. It's *all* about self-gratification. A kind of reasoning, and ethics, much favoured by the more philosophical kinds of psychopaths, so I've heard.


Good thing I am not doing that. I find both extreme positions to be equally as silly.

Edited To Add: All fun and games aside, I think people's motivations and intentions for doing anything are too complex to boil down into "It's not real submission if it's not selfless" or "No one does anything for selfless reasons so it can never be selfless".


< Message edited by DecadentDesire -- 7/17/2011 5:34:48 PM >

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:32:49 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

Good thing I am not doing that. I find both extreme positions to be equally as silly.
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Exactly. They're ridiculous.

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 5:35:31 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		As lon as I get pressies, I don't care how the giver feels

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 8:09:52 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
People get happy giving presents, does that mean they didn't give a present, or that the gift of a present wasn't a gift because they enjoyed giving it?


Hell, no. After all, it's only a twue present if the present giver suffers every possible waking minute of their existence and receives absolutely zero joy from the act. It's the only way we can feel secure that they are a twue present giver, and not one of those fake present givers who dares to selfishly indulge in a little personal happiness in any form.

That's my philosophy to submission. I plan on taking their gift and stomping it into the ground with my foot every second of the day to ensure they aren't commiting the crime of experiencing happiness in my relationship.



You are a twue and weal dominant


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RE: Intention of submission - 7/17/2011 9:38:59 PM   
JanahX


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Status: offline 		- " there is always a level of fake in the submissive's intentions! "

I was wondering what people make of this?

I am very fake. Also, I have very bad intentions. Sounds about right ....

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 12:21:43 AM   
Awareness


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Status: offline 		  Christ.  Some people overthink fucking everything.

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 1:02:44 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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Status: offline 		true, but at least we fucking think.

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 7:15:35 AM   
xssve


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quote:

God, you are young and dumb. The submission is a gift thing is so played out. In the past only the slow and thick have thought of their submission as such. You never give a gift if you expect something in return. It does not surprise me in the least that you hold on to this notion.
Never look a gift horse in the mouth - I think it's terribly romantic myself, I'm not jaundiced by the slow and thick, I'm jaundiced by fashion nazis.

I definitely consider my time valuable, so giving it to someone is a gift, I can't get it back, so if she's giving me her time, that's a gift as well.

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 8:22:24 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire
That's my philosophy to submission. I plan on taking their gift and stomping it into the ground with my foot every second of the day to ensure they aren't commiting the crime of experiencing happiness in my relationship.

Wow! That was timely advice DD, thanks! I have to admit that recently I've been sensing that Carol may actually be enjoying herself somewhat in our marriage. I knew something was wrong but really didn't know what to do about it. But man, I can see how a bit of stomping and grinding would get her back into a suitably miserable head space.

Sadly, while we all sit on this thread and mock this line of thinking, it is in fact incredibly prevalent... I'd go so far as to say near ubiquitous... in BDSM-land. It's one of the underlying memes that colors everything.


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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 8:53:59 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

Edited To Add: All fun and games aside, I think people's motivations and intentions for doing anything are too complex to boil down into "It's not real submission if it's not selfless" or "No one does anything for selfless reasons so it can never be selfless".



i agree.

there are these two extremes -- people who think you're not a weal subbie if you don't offer yourself up to be obliterated without a single thought to your own desires, and then there are those who view themselves as long-suffering martyrs because of how much they're "willing to take."

why can't people just appreciate each other? why does either D or s have to be more important, more essential than the other? where are the people in the middle of the bloody continuum? =p



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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 9:12:04 AM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

true, but at least we fucking think.


Touche. i'll give you this, Hannah: you've a much more active thinker than i am, and much readier to act on your ideas than i. "You're a better man than i am, Gunga Din."

pam

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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 10:36:59 AM   
PainObjectForUse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep


there are these two extremes -- people who think you're not a weal subbie if you don't offer yourself up to be obliterated without a single thought to your own desires,



Then I will never be a real sub, and for all it's worth, IMHO that is not being Dominant and is simply an over-compensation for something.

Tony

A.KA. - your friendly ( pretentious ) neighbourhood silver tongue devil.


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RE: Intention of submission - 7/18/2011 11:47:19 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
there are these two extremes -- people who think you're not a weal subbie if you don't offer yourself up to be obliterated without a single thought to your own desires, and then there are those who view themselves as long-suffering martyrs because of how much they're "willing to take."

And then there's Carol who just does what she's told and seems to be pretty happy about it all. Conveniently for us, we find "happiness" to reinforce our "guy and girl who love each other" dynamic so all is well.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Profile   Post #: 79
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