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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 7:56:02 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"I hope you don't mind me pointing out that the only available evidence right now points to a Polish connection instead. "

I wonder what ou mean by that. Are Polaks suspects ? I am of that descent and I can tell you that they (or we) are very revolutionary. Even with superior weapons it took the Germans some time and trouble to take Poland, moreso than some countries. And collaberators were few.

They could indeed be at it again, I have no idea to what they have been exposed or what their stake could be in this. I KNOW they didn't like fighting their ass off in WW2 and then ending up under the thumb of the USSR. I also know they have very long memories.

Amma tellya, if they get against the US/UK bullshit in force, some of the other ex-eastern bloc countries are likely to follow suit. That could change things. (I am talking people, not governments)

But then "they" say change is good. And as always, time will tell.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:00:54 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		~fr~

Police now confirm at least 80 fatalities on Utsøya island, the number being expected to rise as divers keep looking.

That's about 80 dead teenagers, shot by a man dressed as a police officer with a fake badge and an automatic weapon.

Not impressed.

For perspective, that's more than the total number of people killed in the past three years up here.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 7/22/2011 8:05:59 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:00:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"I will not respond to you again on this subject"

Thank you.

T^T

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:05:28 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Let me begin my answer by reiterating that I am angry and upset at precisely this thing.

But the cynic in me is saying: someone making a very big omelet. Our political parties have youth organizations. Here, they effectively do wield some limited political power. But, more importantly, they build contact networks and get indoctrinated into the party line (this is particularly prevalent in the relevant party, essentially communists). The one attacked is the one that is associated with the main party in the present government, who wormed their way through the weaknesses in the parliamentary model from being virtually thrown out to gaining the key roles in a trilateral party block. Just in the course of this past 4-year term, they have defiled the country in ways too numerous and obscene to make sexual analogies about. This attack hits them everywhere it hurts, toe to head.

And yet I would like to draw a blank.

The sad thing is: it makes sense.




Does it?


quote:

Our political parties have youth organizations.


Oh great; "Hitler youth" still exists, in the modern world. Whatever the party or ideology; preaching political ideology of whatever sort at such an early stage in life, where music, math, foreign language, etc. is demonstrably better for purpose of mind development; but who has time for it when more important things and budget cuts come into play ...

Priorities.

Why don't you guys just save a lot of trouble and catch up to the modern world, as in the US, where we just eliminate all the "mind development" crap in the first place by eliminating all the aforementioned in our educational system to start with, in deference to instilling of Orwellian conformity toward authority and aggression toward neighbors?

No need for 'youth politics/ideology' camps when you can just canvass and control the whole affair from the outset.

The 'politics' and 'ideology' are what make any serious question deserving of well-thought consideration based on intrinsic merit into just another football match.

Pardon me if I don't find much 'comfort' from the European or elsewise 'mindset' in this regard, just because of a differently understood way of societal implosion.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/22/2011 8:38:50 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:05:37 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"This guy has managed to make that a lot harder, in the span of a day. "

That is exactly what McVeigh did here, and he came from within.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:09:32 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"We've got something better than nukes: oil. "

Don't take this wrong, but so does Iraq.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:12:54 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Why don't you guys just save a lot of trouble and catch up to the modern world, as in the US, where we just eliminate the  all "mind development" crap in the first place by eliminating all the aforementioned in our educational system to start with, in deference to instilling of Orwellian conformity toward authority and aggression toward neighbors? "

I really hope my sarcasm detector is not giving me a false indication.

T^T

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:21:50 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

Yes and no.

Sarcasm on my part.

Unfortunately, 'reality' regarding the populace as a whole and our "education" system as exists now.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/22/2011 8:27:32 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:46:58 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Well Ed, at least it's not a NO ! People are waking up, a few at a time, this takes time. You know that the power of governments is what causes wr. We The People could be just fine without them if we could effectively deal with anarchy. Maybe we cannot because we have never tried recently ?

I am very radical in ways that most could never begin to understand. But I do see reality and I see how people are, and more importantly how they have changed. More and more people are seeing that their governments are not working in the People's best interest. It always has been a class war, in which one class takes from another, and that includes wealth and blood, as well as heritage these days.

This league of nations, these treaties, mutual agreements for help in case of strife, they are for the suppression of insurrection. I have been able to see that before I ever even knew the internet existed. They are a gang. One country's people rebel, another will help "restore order". If that order is friendly to the gang, it is called just that, but if not it is called ethnic cleansing. This is evident in many world happenings. And as long as the victors write the history, people have little in the way of means to know the truth.

But for most readers of any blog or forum, we have no way of knowing what influence has been staked and claimed. We cannot influence those who are hopelessly lost in the game, as much less than pawns. But many of us are not pawns, we think and reason. Sometimes we ask WHY ? And when we do we find answers that the sheeple do not like. Those who support the status quo shun and ridicule us, but the true among us are not disuaded in the least.

I am not fond nor supportive of the spewings nor convictions (if any) of Alex Jones, Micheal Moore and the like. They are counteproductive. If they would just present facts, they would be "hell on wheels" so to speak. And they have facts but they feel the need to embellish, and that insults my intelligence. If I were to run such sites, I would surely meet with some fatal situation soon enough. This is not a conspiracy theory, there are enough instances of "suicide" and "auto accidents" and so forth. Do you know anyone who has been attacked by auto accident ? By someone who tried ON PURPOSE to kill him ? I do. I not only know the victim who survived, I also know the perpetrator(s). If some regualar folk can do this, what do you think that people with money and power can do ? The game is rigged.

Keep questioning EVERYTHING. (even what I say)

T^T

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:47:58 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


Regarding Polish, I did not state the nature of the connection, as it is not clear, although East European neonazi organizations have been gaining ground in the area. You would know better than me whether Poland has a radical nationalist or neonazi movement. I was simply pointing out that if we're going to speculate on how diplomatic relations may have influenced the course of these events so far, then the only leads so far are messages written in Polish by the perp, and that it's very uncommon to speak Polish among native Norwegians. Or one could speculate on his ties to the Freemasons (3rd rank). It's supremely unproductive, as the causes are a lot closer to home.

Simply put, the most recent updates indicate a political grudge shared by a significant percentage of the population, and well represented in other countries around the world, including the USA. The perception of rotting from within that you mention is indeed the root cause of the attack, going by present data. Except, instead of assassinating a politician, he killed teenagers and blew up most of the government buildings. It is also quite plausible that he was hoping to get the Prime Minister as well, since he was scheduled to have a speech on the island the next day and may well have originally been planning to visit on the day of the shootings and had to rearrange his schedule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Does it?


It makes sense in that it is possible to comprehend his motives.

Which is not to say that his course of action can be defended, of course.

Believe me, I have tried. I always try to see the flip side of an issue. By the feedback I've gotten in my time here and elsewhere, I am apparently somewhat proficient at it. If anyone else cares to attempt a defense in the interest of playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't mind hearing it (but I would advise against voicing it to the general public, given the emotional state of the nation). But so far, I can't come up with any justification that holds enough water for the pet spider to quench its thirst.

quote:

Oh great; "Hitler youth" still exists, in the modern world.


Not quite. Think of it as political apprenticeship.

The indoctrination is a subliminal effect: socializing with a certain group and striving for status and approval in that group to pave the way to a political career in the adult party is something which naturally leads to a certain bias. It's not universal or enforced (they're regularly in conflict with the parent party, and some of their most vocal dissidents did climb the ladder this way). But the effect is, of course, very insidious feedback that arguably works out a lot less benevolently in the ideologically invasive parties (e.g. Labor) than in the parties that encourage free thinking, real world experience and solutions based on evidence (e.g. Liberal Left, Fiscal Conservatives).

quote:

Why don't you guys just save a lot of trouble and catch up to the modern world, as in the US, where we just eliminate the  all "mind development" crap in the first place by eliminating all the aforementioned in our educational system to start with, in deference to instilling of Orwellian conformity toward authority and aggression toward neighbors?


We're way ahead of you, sorry to say.

quote:

The 'politics' and 'ideology' are what make any serious question deserving of well-thought consideration based on intrinsic merit into just another football match.


Which appears to have been part of why this guy was disgruntled to begin with.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:56:17 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		~fr~

This just in...

Eyewitness accounts from the island indicate the apprehended shooter may have been coordinating over radio with as-of-yet unknown parties to the attack. It seems plausible that there was more than one shooter, and that any other shooters are still at large. Alternately, that the shooter was coordinating with coconspirators that were not present on the island. In either case, more bombings or shootings might be plausible, though it would be more difficult to carry them out now that the entire police force is in the streets and armed to the teeth.

Eyewitness accounts under duress are notoriously unreliable, and teenagers going from living in the "safest country in the world" to holding their friends' guts in after a massacre will doubtless be even less reliable. It does have a troubling degree of plausibility to it, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 8:57:00 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

If he is found competent to stand trial, he faces 14-21 years in prison.



Please tell me I'm misreading this somehow.  Tell me that is per cold blooded murder, and will run consecutively.  I cannot wrap my mind around a sentence that ever allows this man to draw a breath of free air again, and call it any sort of justice.

It's a horrible thing that has happened in your part of the world.  My good thoughts go out to the victims, and to your country.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 9:24:45 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I am going to respond somewhat in order, but not quote. (much)

First the Polaks. Did you ever hear of Radio Solidarity ? Well I know the guy who started it and I know alot of details of the operation. They had tapes, and Jaroslav is an electronics guy. He built the transmitter out of spare parts and the antenna from vacuum cleaner tubes (wand extensions). The tubes were the antenna, and he scrounged for the parts for the high power RF, transistors to make it work. He and a few cohorts went to a hilltop and with the transmitter drowned out the sound subcarrier on one of the TV channels, of course at the time and frequency of the most popular show. The government kept triangulating, and almost caught them several times, but with Jaros, the fastest runner with the transmitter he built, and another guy with the batteries and yet another with the vacuum cleaner parts scattering, they never got caught as a group. Each had gotten caught but not Jaros with the transmitter he built, because he was the fastest runner. The guy with the batteries got caught but they had to let him go, same with the vacuum cleaner pieces. Somehow in time word got around and he was jailed on suscpicion, and that blackilisted him for certain things. When he wanted to start a security company they gave him alot of trouble. That's when he decided to emmigrate here, and even under those conditions he DID consider going back. He adapted to what we seem to call culture, but I KNOW he doesn't like it. Now he owns a successful business and has a Wife and kids. So much for going back.

But we talked about what it is like to live under communism and he said that under communism you know you are controlled, here you are controlled but you don't know it. I retorted that I know it. I consider him a friend and always will. But he took those risks, and so would othe Polaks, without reservation most of the time. What's more, from family, actually some things he told me from his as well as mine, Poland was one of the most anti-Jew countries in Europe. Perhaps that was not publicised, but I got it from two sources. So it would not surprise me a bit is Polaks were involved in any anti-"ZOG" activities anywhere. And many Europeans move about Europe like we travel across state lines here. There you need a passport, here you need a driver's license. Both can be denied by a government, and that is a matter of control. Why else would it be but to track people's movements ?

And, collateral damage is often blown off by the rulers of this country and others, so the idea is to fight fire with fire.

"Which is not to say that his course of action can be defended, of course."

Sorry, I quoted, and I know it was not even to me. But now defend the carpet bombing of Dresden, and our actions in Afghanistan a couple of decades ago, and our support of Saddam all those years. None of these things were in the best interests of the people. Not a one. In Dresden they specifically got to people who were NOT soldiers in Hitler's regime, in Afghanistan the SPECIFICALLY were just trying to drain the resources of the USSR, unmindful of the fact that they were draining ours and destroying people's lives there. The US PUT Saddam in power because of the situation in Iran. I know that, they know that, but certin people cannot grasp it. WE FUCKED UP ! But some think that we can do no wrong.

"Not quite. Think of it as political apprenticeship."

It goes on all the time. Everywhere. That is the game. And that meine freund(sp), is what defines a class war for what it is. And it always has been. And in time it will become a has been. Time will tell.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/22/2011 9:26:51 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 9:46:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Please tell me I'm misreading this somehow.  Tell me that is per cold blooded murder, and will run consecutively.  I cannot wrap my mind around a sentence that ever allows this man to draw a breath of free air again, and call it any sort of justice. It's a horrible thing that has happened in your part of the world.  My good thoughts go out to the victims, and to your country.


If he's considered sane, the upper limit is 21 years, out of which it is plausible that up to 7 could be spent on parole.

A lot can happen in that time. If what happens does not include actual, effective and convincing rehabilitation, he will have a fatal accident upon his release. If it does include such a degree of rehabilitation, there is no gain in continued incarceration, whereas as a citizen, he can contribute taxes. Also, assuming rehabilitation does occur, the weight of what he has done will undoubtedly drive him to either suicide or active attempts at contributing additionally to society. Finally, it is obvious that if he is ever released, he will be subject to quite rigorous surveillance, which will be useful in itself, if he tries to make contact with problematic organizations, as that exposes them to the same thing, effectively. It's a win-win, if everyone does their job. Vengeance doesn't bring anyone back, and you can't kill him 90+ times, anyway.

That said, odds are he will either meet with an 'unfortunate' accident, or the pointy end of a shiv.

And, quite frankly, I wouldn't want the legal system to change on account of his actions.

When the response to terrorism is predictable, terrorists become successful.

That goes for domestic terrorism as well.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 9:50:49 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


I never said I was defending US foreign policy. I don't.

I said I cannot defend what this guy did.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 9:55:12 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Tell me that is per cold blooded murder, and will run consecutively.  I cannot wrap my mind around a sentence that ever allows this man to draw a breath of free air again, and call it any sort of justice. "

Agreed. In fact the noose would be not enough. My buddy has a plan for murderers, wanna hear it ?

T^T

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 9:58:35 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Also, assuming rehabilitation does occur, the weight of what he has done will undoubtedly drive him to either suicide or active attempts at contributing additionally to society."

No offense, but you do not grasp the criminal mind. Understandable, living in a good country, you simply don't have the experience.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 10:23:50 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

My buddy has a plan for murderers, wanna hear it ?




Save it for a death penalty thread, instead of dragging it into the middle of the table on the intial discussion of such an awful tragedy as this, and sure.  I am a sadist, after all, and permission paperwork from a judge is even better than consent, to my way of thinking. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 10:25:44 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
That said, odds are he will either meet with an 'unfortunate' accident, or the pointy end of a shiv.



I'm ok with the free air being denied by those methods, if that's what it takes.  Thank you for the clarification.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/22/2011 10:39:18 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Termyn8or,

Out of all the BS ever uttered on this board, you may just have claimed the top spot.

Your analysis of me is such a clusterfuck that I wouldn't know in which end to start, even if I cared to.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 60
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