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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/23/2011 8:36:48 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I really can't wrap my head around this sort of thing. That's the point of terrorism, I suppose, to confuse us. What gain can there be, in this kind of massacre?


Terrorism and terrorists have a point that is much more well thought out, your confusion and fear is simply a path that they hope to use in accomplishing their objectives.

I will do the best I can to give you a short version of my training on the subject of how and why.   Some may disagree and my version may not be completely accurate of what I was taught, take it for what any message board posting is worth....

There are two basic types of terrorists, the ones who do the attacks (followers) and the ones who plan/ arrange the attacks (leaders.)

Solo attackers such as this one, McVeigh (Oklahoma City), Major Hasan (Ft Hood), etc. did their own planning but have the same psychology as a follower.

Followers in terrorism come from ALL demographic groups.   They can be young or old, uneducated or PhD, male or female, etc.   The key is for them to have a feeling of a major need or cause that is being oppressed.  One that can't be accepted or reconciled but can be influenced through a major act that captures attention.   This feeling of being an unheard/ unrecognized victim grows into anger and then into action.   Their death is more than a non-issue, it is usually seen as a welcome relief to the follower.

The terrorist leader is an entirely different animal.   As before, these folks come  from many demographics.   They seek to inspire others in their efforts to harm those who they feel have oppressed them, but they don't view death as a relief.   Ironically,  they often have a very low opinion of the followers who they recruit and inspire to carry out their attacks (this was demonstrated by bin Laden when he was laughing as he spoke of the fact that some of the 9/11 hijackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission.)

The leaders are very careful and calculating in their efforts.  They want others to either fear them or to exalt them as that is what gives them power.   They will go to any extreme in their efforts and will put themselves at risk, but they never include their own death as part of any of their operations.  (Look up the Jonestown Masacre and Jim Jones' plans to flee after his followers comitted suicide....with the exception of his top security people who also held the mind set of terrorist leaders.)

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/23/2011 9:03:05 PM   
AlwaysLisa


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Aswad, 

First, I must say that I am still reeling from all the news, and I agree, your country will never be the same.    What puzzles me a little, is the size of this island, and the fact it was only one shooter.   The stories are sketchy at best, but he shot at people while they were swimming, climbing out of the water and on the land...from the aerial shot, that looks like alot of area to cover for one man to do the damage he did in the time he did it.  His first comments, via his lawyer, were rational, well thought out and he came across as sane as the person next to me.   I think that is the most terrifying part.   Charles Manson never had that calmness and level of believability.

This person, blended well into society, was well liked and worked on an organic farm, not your typical warning signs.  I'm wondering if there is more then one person, simply due to the geographical area that was covered both in the bombing and shooting on the island.  If there is a cell of discontented citizens who felt the government needed a reality check, I would hope they are looking at it from that angle.

At any rate, yes, your country will see changes, and I am so sorry.  

My heart goes out to not only the bomb victims, but all those lost on the island and their families.

Lisa


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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/23/2011 11:39:58 PM   
Termyn8or


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"To be as polite as I can be, I will offer to read your post, and maybe reply, if you condense it and structure it."

Thank you. I will try to make my point more succinctly and sans tertiary details soon. I don't think I was off topic, but maybe from an angle that is not appreciated at the moment.

I'll work on it.

T^T

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 12:19:12 AM   
SirPumpy


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Absolutely gobsmacking!

Last I heard yesterday Afternoon (plus 10 hours GMT) there had been a bomb blast that had damaged buildings and then I read this thread and found there was much much more.

My deepest condolences go to the families of the decease and injured and my thanks go to you Aswad for taking the time to share this tragedy and your insightful commentary.

I tip my hat to you good sir.

Tony


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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 1:39:52 AM   
Aswad


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AlwaysLisa,

The actual shooting could have been done by one man.

He wore a police officer uniform, so the kids trusted him implicitly. Most have never heard a real gunshot, and didn't realize there was anything going on until people started running. He appears to have trained with the weapons and has been a hunter. An automatic rifle was apparently used. He was methodical and gunned for the larger groups first. With half a mile to swim to shore, the people fleeing the island would be trivial to hit for anyone trained in the use of a carabine or assault rifle. Given that he planned this for 12 years, he would have probably had ample opportunity to get intimately familiar with the island up front. It is also conceivable that he used Google Maps for planning, as many others have done. And he got rid of the boats, so there were 560 fish in a barrel, so to speak.

As you say, this was the work of a sane man.

And, yes, it is a terrifying thought to most. A thought I've been well aware of for many years. People who haven't had it themselves have closed their ears when I've voiced the possibility of such things. It's been too scary for them to contemplate. Instead, they have erected elaborate personal delusions to prevent facing the truth. And I am sad to say I do not think they will choose to face it now, once various politicians start to present "solutions" to the problem. Like the long history the targetted political party has with surveillance of dissidents, and more recently the population at large. Or the "hard on crime" people, with their universal DNA registry proposal. Even if they were to somehow resist the urge to "do something", the political climate will inevitably favor the proposals that were less popular.

Fear makes people do things. Like blowing away 85 kids at a youth camp. Or lowering the threshold for access to the super-surveillance programme that tracks nearly 100% of the population at least 80% of the time with enough precision to tell their every move. Or simply disregarding the constitution (due process has been violated; this man cannot legally be tried, convicted and sentenced, thanks to media and police and judges and politicians all ignoring their duties under pressure). We've come close to a total police state in the past. Some would argue we were a police state before this. The terrorist certainly seems to have believed so. But those things do not spark fear in Norwegians, who have a naïve and unquestioning idea of government and authority in general.

Violence sparks fear like nothing else up here. It's the thought that cannot and must not exist. And so 560 little lambs ran around in the slaughterhouse while the butcher quietly went about making lamb chops. Nobody tried to gang up on him. None of the neighbours with boats tried to bring a rifle or shotgun. He could kill with impunity. And he fucking knew it.

But, yeah, he will have had accomplices who at the very least suspected what he was going to do.

That thought, however, cannot and must not exist. Not officially. Not openly. It's dangerous.

And since he must be 'evil', he can't inspire others, because people are 'good'. Usually.

As you say, it will bring changes, and they're unlikely to be healthy.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 4:32:25 AM   
Aswad


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Speaking of having accomplices...

6 additional arrests have been made. I'll leave out nationality for now.

Bomb squads are on site, presumably in connection with the large containers on the premises.

The earlier figures remain largely unchanged at 92 dead, 97 injured and an unknown number missing.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 4:32:48 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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I would just like to thank Aswad and Nephandi for keeping us all updated. Reading accounts is nice but there's nothing quite like getting information right from the source.

Zeph


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(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 4:47:08 AM   
sirsholly


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There are no words....




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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 6:28:13 AM   
Aswad


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Yeah, Zeph...

It lets you see how conflicted the info is, even when one sticks to official statements.

Incidentally, the manifesto thing has been "revealed" to borrow heavily from the Unabomber in the doctrine parts.

The guy is looking forward to an open trial. Make a speech, pave the way for martyrdom. All of that.

Liberal news papers are printing pieces advocating censorship and abolishment of privacy and anonymity online now, so I'm curious how the center and right wing will spin it. Nobody was ever big on free speech, free press, privacy or anonymity earlier, except one party that makes too much sense to ever get into the government as a major party to it. These are some of the grievances put forth by people who've made declarations of support or sympathy for the attacker. I fail to see how we'll be safer by forcing them out in the cold and under ground.

Meh.

And police have revised the timetables for just about everything now, along with chucking the six arrested people without making it clear whether it's on a "don't have sufficient evidence" grounds or a "don't seem to be relevant" grounds (vague usually meaning that there's something left to tell that's purposely left out, just like everywhere else). So we've gotten antinews, it seems. ;)




_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 6:36:31 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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Bah! I just like to give credit where it's due 

I think censorship on the interwebz is the last thing we need. Yeah it gives scary people a voice and makes it easier for them to find each other but it also makes it easier to keep an eye on them. Like you said, it would only force them underground.

I'm of two minds with regards to abolishing privacy. Yeah it would make it easier to find the monsters but it would also make it easier for the monsters to find victims. I guess it depends on whether they also intend on keeping a closer eye and even then how could they possibly keep an eye on everyone?

Zeph


_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 8:24:06 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

If he is found competent to stand trial, he faces 14-21 years in prison. Otherwise, he faces life in an institution.
Unless he is found to be insane he will receive up to 21 yrs in prison. This is a young man who doesnt sound insane to me, considering all the planning and caution that went into his rampage, but that is just my opinion.

A news report said he spent 12 yrs planning this, so he has proven himself to be patient and methodical. The thought of what he will do when released from prison is terrifying.

And in many cases here a mental patient can be committed to an institution but is released when deemed "cured".


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BOOT WHORE
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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 8:38:18 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
Solo attackers such as this one, McVeigh (Oklahoma City)

they often have a very low opinion of the followers who they recruit and inspire to carry out their attacks (this was demonstrated by bin Laden when he was laughing as he spoke of the fact that some of the 9/11 hijackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission.)

McVeigh still lives.

Bin Laden had nothing to do with 911, other than being a scapegoat.

(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 8:58:41 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Liberal news papers are printing pieces advocating censorship and abolishment of privacy and anonymity online now

If they are going for gun control, I would suspect that the murderer got his orders from the government, or at least the people who control the government.

Gun control usually is introduced when a government intends to commit genocide on parts of its population, and is preceded by attacks like this one.

I would be suspicious of the blood relations of the murderer. Was he in the army? Does his aunt work for the secret service? Is his uncle a member of parliament? Is his grandfather a freemason? Does he have children or will e have grandchildren and will one of them marry a millionaire or royalty ten years from now, or one more generation in the future?

If planned, these operations may take many years to set up. 911 for example was planned, though not in its details, before the twin towers were designed. Timmy worked for years to establish his cover - though that bombing was a rush job. So if this was a black ops job, then yes he may have spent fifteen years to establish his cover.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 2:27:01 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
Solo attackers such as this one, McVeigh (Oklahoma City)

they often have a very low opinion of the followers who they recruit and inspire to carry out their attacks (this was demonstrated by bin Laden when he was laughing as he spoke of the fact that some of the 9/11 hijackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission.)

McVeigh still lives.

Bin Laden had nothing to do with 911, other than being a scapegoat.




You are quite wrong on both accounts.


McVeigh was executed on June 11, 2001.

There is a littany of evidence demonstrating Osama bin Laden's direct involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 2:32:35 PM   
Muttling


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More insights are coming into the attacker's psychology.   He was so self consumed that he went so far as to post a Q/A where he asked and answered the questions.   This response alone is the one I find most telling....

quote:

Around 2000, I realized that the democratic struggle against the Islamization of Europe, and European multiculturalism, was lost. It is simply not possible to compete with democratic regimes that import millions of voters. 40 years of dialogue with the cultural Marxists / multiculturalists had ended up as a disaster. It would now only take 50-70 years before we, Europeans, were the minority. So I decided to explore alternative forms of opposition. But the biggest problem then was that there were no options for me at all.



< Message edited by Muttling -- 7/24/2011 2:34:02 PM >

(in reply to Muttling)
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RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 2:48:05 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
Solo attackers such as this one, McVeigh (Oklahoma City)

they often have a very low opinion of the followers who they recruit and inspire to carry out their attacks (this was demonstrated by bin Laden when he was laughing as he spoke of the fact that some of the 9/11 hijackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission.)

McVeigh still lives.

Bin Laden had nothing to do with 911, other than being a scapegoat.




You are quite wrong on both accounts.


McVeigh was executed on June 11, 2001.

There is a littany of evidence demonstrating Osama bin Laden's direct involvement in the 9/11 attacks.


Be aware that you are attempting to converse rationally with a Ditch neo-nazi who believes that circumcision is causing the collapse of the West. Only you can decide how valuable your time is.

Back to the topic, I am going to quote a quite brilliant young man on another site:
"Most of you (hopefully all of you) are aware of the recent tragedies that occurred in Oslo and on the little island of Otoya, Norway. The media response to this event, before it was discovered who was culpable, was to assume the involvement of an Islamic terror organization. As such, the word "terror" and "terrorism" in connection with the at-the-time anonymous perpetrator appeared in the columns of papers both rag and respectable. You can find a collection of such article here.

When it was revealed that Anders Behring Breikvik, a 32 year old Norwegian man with a self-professed ultra-conservative, "Christian Nationalist" ideology was behind the acts, everything changed. Instead of "terror" and "terrorism," we have a plethora of other words with vastly different, de-politicized connotations: phrases like "lone gunman/lone wolf," "madman," "gun maniac," etc. Glenn Greenwald's analysis of this change can be found HERE and I think best represents my views on the subject.

I am sure we can hearken back to the Jared Loughner case and remember the absurd attempts to pin those actions on a particular Party or political ideology. This case is quite different though. I think it is rather hard to call this man mad given the lengths he went to in order to carry out his plan and the justifications he created to quash the moral guilt of slaughtering innocent children. Anders gave us more than Loughner's inchoate pseudo-psycholinguistic Youtube videos: he actually wrote a 1,500 page manifesto and guide to committing more terror attacks. LINK Anders is well educated, wealthy, clearly in control of his own faculties, and clearly strongly motivated by his own anti-multikulti, anti-"cultural Marxist", anti-Other form of nationalism. Why then has the media discarded its early terminology? How are Islamic terrorist attacks substantially different than this one?" (thank you Finktron)



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(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 4:27:37 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
You are quite wrong on both accounts.

I am?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
McVeigh was executed on June 11, 2001.

Certainly. So what? Lots of people have been dead. If he is dead now, you can show me his body. If he lives now, you cannot show me his body. Please show me his body?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
There is a litany of evidence demonstrating Osama bin Laden's direct involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

Pff. Sheeple fodder.

(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 4:49:39 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
More insights are coming into the attacker's psychology.   He was so self consumed that he went so far as to post a Q/A where he asked and answered the questions.   This response alone is the one I find most telling....

quote:

Around 2000, I realized that the democratic struggle against the Islamization of Europe, and European multiculturalism, was lost. It is simply not possible to compete with democratic regimes that import millions of voters. 40 years of dialogue with the cultural Marxists / multiculturalists had ended up as a disaster. It would now only take 50-70 years before we, Europeans, were the minority. So I decided to explore alternative forms of opposition. But the biggest problem then was that there were no options for me at all.


Well, of course it was lost. We have the conundrum here that the western powers did their utmost to have all European populations that practice circumcision (Jews), exterminated - and about fifteen to twenty years after the Second World War they decided to have huge numbers of Turkish and North African populations that practice circumcision (Muslims, which according to my definition are also Jews) immigrate into Western Europe. I am truly confused as to the - undoubtedly vile - motivation for the latter policy.


(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 5:04:06 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Certainly. So what? Lots of people have been dead. If he is dead now, you can show me his body. If he lives now, you cannot show me his body. Please show me his body?



As was stated above, your foolishness is a waste of my time and this is my last response to you.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: There goes the neighbourhood - 7/24/2011 5:17:38 PM   
Rule


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I consider that an implied admittance that you cannot show me Timmy's corpse, as well that you are too stubborn to admit that you might be wrong.

(in reply to Muttling)
Profile   Post #: 100
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