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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 2:04:39 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

For the record: I am against prisons. Just chain a criminal to a pole on a platform or in a pit, and if someone throws them a scrap of bread, or gives them a blanket in winter, they will live. And if not, they will starve or freeze...


And this for anyone who have committed a crime? What about a mother that steals so her child can have medicine, or a 18 year old who have fallen in with the wrong crowd and stolen a car, what about a woman who kills the man who raped her and so on and so on, is not your suggestion here a bit harsh? Even if someone have comitted a crime do not mean that they are human waste.

I wish you well


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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 3:03:37 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings


And this for anyone who have committed a crime? What about a mother that steals so her child can have medicine, or a 18 year old who have fallen in with the wrong crowd and stolen a car, what about a woman who kills the man who raped her and so on and so on, is not your suggestion here a bit harsh? Even if someone have comitted a crime do not mean that they are human waste.

I wish you well



Thank You Nephandi for your posts over the past two or so days.

Even though you are enduring the most difficult and heart rending of circumstances, even though you are far closer to the dreadful deeds than any of us, you have retained your honesty, intelligence, sensitivity and humanity while coming to terms with this horror.


You have shown us that the best reaction to these horrors is to foreground our human values, our integrity the very things that make us what we are even when they are under the most duress. I am certain that these qualities will help guide you through this dark time and that your future will be brighter. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you and best wishes.

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 5:27:33 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Just thinking about Norway's criminal sentences, in that, is there a sentence for mass murder, does the murders of many equate to one person in law, because if it doesn't (and from my perspective shouldn't, as it implies the many are ignored whilst only one murder is punishable) , serving one term for the murder as in this case might not be such a light sentence.

But as I am also opposed to capital punishment, primarily because of the unreliability of any justice system, I also feel this monster needs to be adequately dealt with, incarceration seems too light a punishment given the often salubrious conditions the incarcerated are presented with, leading to the thought that this monster knew what awaited him when he was finally captured, a civilised justice system where he can live in apparent luxury and be out with good behaviour in a few years, and wko knows be in a position to do it all again.

Life imprisonment is the only option, not twenty one years and life imprisonment with no access to the outside world, meaning no tv, internet or current affairs literature, as the person has demonstrated his disdain for that in what he knowingly did, a life of boredom is a very good sentence.

Incarceration if it is to be a crime preventative has to be such that criminals fear it.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 5:35:45 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Actually that is an incorrect statement - the US is the ONLY western country who has the capital punishment, I don't think you can speak of "most" if all others have abolished it as barbaric.

Technically we still have it here, but only for high treason, piracy and (I think) arson in a naval dockyard.

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 5:38:56 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		FR

I've been giving this a lot of thought. Nephandi, like you I'm against the death penalty.  However in cases such as this one when it's clear that they have the right person - though maybe not the only one - and he freely admits to having done this, what else can they do but execute him. Any form of punishment which gives even the possibility of his being let out is unthinkable.

Unfortunately yeah he furthered his cause and achieved at least part of what he set out to do. Now there is widespread fear and confusion and he has called attention to his beliefs and that to me is almost as horrifying as the damage and deaths he caused.


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:00:52 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Do you really think killing him is going to undercut his beliefs, rather than giving similar nutcases who enjoyed The Turner Diaries a martyr?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:04:18 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		First of all, I apologize if my post came across as merely about this one man. Secondly it beats the hell out of taking the chance of him and his ilk getting out and continuing where they left off. As far as I'm concerned the fewer people like him on the streets the better. And yeah I wouldn't be upset if he had an "accident" while in prison.

Zeph


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:09:12 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Who would?
Given that he's keen to have his day in court, though, the penny might have dropped that he's going to be a lot safer in prison than after his relief. I'm thinking Myra Hindley, here: her shit of a boyfriend was in the habit of throwing a hunger strike every other month, but she was smart enough to realise that she'd have the life expectancy of a soap goldfish if they ever let her out...

Besides, continuing where he left in 21 years is a bit unlikely, given Norway's knack for surveillance. I doubt whatever bits of his firm haven't been picked up (or any other white surpremacist nutcases out there, come to that) will want anything to do with him in future.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:11:02 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Technically we still have it here, but only for high treason, piracy and (I think) arson in a naval dockyard.


If you're referring to the UK, then no, those caveats were removed some time ago, as part of the integration of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Shipyard arson and piracy in the early 70s, and the rest in the 1998 Act which recognised the ECOHR, and specifically the 13th protocol of the ECOHR, which effectively bans capital punishment under any circumstances.

So, no. Common misconception though.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:14:13 AM   
RapierFugue


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Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

And yeah I wouldn't be upset if he had an "accident" while in prison.


I would. He shouldn't get an easy out. He's a young man. Let him have the finest medical and social care available, so he can live a long, long life with his crimes, in a state of boredom and derision.

There are no exceptions or caveats for the death penalty; you either believe in it or you don't, and I don't. You can't say "I'm against it but ..." and then go on to list exceptions, and call yourself "against" it. It's one of life's purely digital decisions; you either accept it as a viable solution in a modern, civilised society, or you do not, and I do not.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:15:16 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		I'm not so sure he's going to be all that safe in prison. Things have a way of happening to people like him, especially given that he killed a whole lot of children.

As for his continuing where he left off, first of all who's to say he would serve the full sentence. Secondly, he has shown a huge amount of patience. All he has to do is wait them out. Sooner or later they would stop watching him so closely leaving him free to start again.

Zeph


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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:21:29 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe it's just me, but "patience" isn't the first term that springs to mind to describe the conduct of a man who resorts to car bombs and shooting children.

(And as for waiting them out, after what he did they may well not stop watching him even after the fucker's dead and buried.)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:22:11 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

I'm not so sure he's going to be all that safe in prison.


He's in a Norwegian prison. They're a more self-controlled and less hysterical people than, say, Americans, as the reactions of many of them have demonstrated thus far.

He'll be just fine.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:25:50 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Maybe it's just me, but "patience" isn't the first term that springs to mind to describe the conduct of a man who resorts to car bombs and shooting children.

(And as for waiting them out, after what he did they may well not stop watching him even after the fucker's dead and buried.)


Moonhead, as I and others have stated, he spent years planning this. That shows all kinds of patience doesn't it?

Sooner or later something else will come along to take their attention away from him. I doubt they have the resources to keep a watch on him til he dies - assuming that someone doesn't take him out.

Zeph


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:27:11 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

I'm not so sure he's going to be all that safe in prison.


He's in a Norwegian prison. They're a more self-controlled and less hysterical people than, say, Americans, as the reactions of many of them have demonstrated thus far.

He'll be just fine.


True, I guess my bias was showing.


_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:28:12 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Maybe it's just me, but "patience" isn't the first term that springs to mind to describe the conduct of a man who resorts to car bombs and shooting children.


It may not be the first term that springs to mind (nor is it a particularly palatable one, which I think is what you were alluding to?), but it's entirely accurate; he has demonstrated highly sociopathic behaviours and one of the corresponding mental strictures that tend to accompany that, in extreme cases, is a highly ordered and disciplined patience.

In times like these it's important to remove the more hysterical tendencies and unreasoned reactions from many people, and deal with the actual facts (not all of which are known yet), and the actual situation, rather than conducting either witch-hunts or vigilante acts ... thankfully, I have faith that the Norwegian people will show the kind of thoughtful, considered restraint that is one of their hallmarks.

I'm very angry about it all, and would cheerfully render harm to the individual concerned if he were in this room now. But I'd be wrong, and that's why laws are made - to be followed in circumstances where instinct and gut reaction fail us, and to maintain a sense of higher purpose within us.

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 6:41:04 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

Anyway, why all this talk about children being victims, yes sure they are and horrific it is, but where is the difference between a lone mad man gunning down children on a holiday island and what our governments do with their armed forces overseas, for surely children in those places are caught in the crossfire or indeed the indescriminate shells and bombs. Why are we not feeling for them, or is it enemy children though blameless are just that, the enemy and so are acceptable casualties not children murdered in warfare by our own people ?

Then we may go onto the countries our governments support, what is it, do we forget the children in those countries, why are we not feeling so similarly apalled at those children wounded and killed by politics in those places, or is it they are just forgotten ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 7:13:12 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

Anyway, I am just waiting for it, when all the analysi come in about what kind of person this killer is, I am waiting, half expecting for suggestions of high functioning autism to be brought forth, as has been the case with Adolf Hitler, Geoffrey Dahmer, Ted Kaczynski and Keith Joseph.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 7:16:35 AM   
FirstQuaker


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Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Fast Reply

Anyway, why all this talk about children being victims, yes sure they are and horrific it is, but where is the difference between a lone mad man gunning down children on a holiday island and what our governments do with their armed forces overseas, for surely children in those places are caught in the crossfire or indeed the indescriminate shells and bombs. Why are we not feeling for them, or is it enemy children though blameless are just that, the enemy and so are acceptable casualties not children murdered in warfare by our own people ?

Then we may go onto the countries our governments support, what is it, do we forget the children in those countries, why are we not feeling so similarly apalled at those children wounded and killed by politics in those places, or is it they are just forgotten ?

You hit the nail on the head with this mans thinking, he believes he is at war, and thinks the killings were acceptable collateral damage, as well as the elimination of a certain number of future traitors/enemies.

Much like the Russians would have considered a nuclear warhead just for Sandhurst or West Point.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/24/2011 7:41:12 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Then it should be accepted that people can wage their own wars, as why leave it to government, are they the only ones allowed to wage war ?

But if we can't accept an individuals right to wage war, then how can we accept our government's right to wage war, or is it government actions are somehow right when individuals are not ?

And as to personal wars waged against whatever or whoever, in what form can that war take, sure killing is the ultimate action, but is it the most damaging ?

In my experience death comes to us all sooner or later, but the creation of fear is the most damaging, as with fear normally level headed people degenerate into many forms of what could be called mental illness, as fear erodes the mind. Fear is what AQ has successfully created, if not fear in everyone, enough fear for irrational laws to be passed to protect us all.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 100
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