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RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 2:11:17 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Popeye
In this day and age it's just natural to think that some Islamist terror group did it


Sorry to tell you pops, but if that kind of thinking comes "naturally" to you, then you're a naturally incorrect thinker. While that's a pretty good excuse for holding the views you do, it's not a good excuse to hold on those thoughts any more ..... and it does indicate the absolutely necessity of some changes.

So I'm looking forward to a complete re-thinking of your views by you. If you need some tips on incisive accurate political thinking and analysis, please feel free to PM me. I'll be only too glad to help you out.



God! PLEASE tell me you don't have a college degree!

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 3:58:49 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Muslims? Hell in Yahoo News the Wacko Lefties were saying it was "Israel" and "the Mossad" that did it!
And that was maybe a *half hour* after it hit the wires!
It's just common sense to reserve judgement about things like this until the facts come out.
A "similar attack" doesn't mean similar people.

P.S. I'm just waiting for the Lefties to try to blame this on "global warming" or some other such nonsense, it's just a matter of time
"The blue-eyed blond males of Northern climes brains are being overheated by global warming."
Boy, for some reason if you have blue eyes and blond hair you're persona non grata with the lefties!
"Honey! *STILL* no invites for cocktail parties for the sympathetic this week?"


Popeye, tell me again about you being an Independent.

I need a good laugh this morning.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 4:18:59 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

And if anyone is interested in how the initial notion that Muslims were behind it spread (at least, in the media), here's a fairly decent analysis.



I think the problem is that there are so many media sources these days that it breeds sloppy journalism.

I was reading an AP article yesterday about this supposed Marilyn Monroe porn film where the writer quoted a Marilyn Monroe "expert".

How exactly does one become a Marilyn Monroe expert?

Can you get a degree in Marilyn Monroe studies from some place?

(in reply to rawtape)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 4:38:25 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
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And that is the problem with the media, they speculate from a position of influence, their speculation undoubtedly influences their readership and whatever elements exist within that readership. Whatever happened to just reporting the facts, you know what actually has happened, not what some opinionated twat thinks went on ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 4:54:26 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

And if anyone is interested in how the initial notion that Muslims were behind it spread (at least, in the media), here's a fairly decent analysis.



I think the problem is that there are so many media sources these days that it breeds sloppy journalism.

I was reading an AP article yesterday about this supposed Marilyn Monroe porn film where the writer quoted a Marilyn Monroe "expert".

How exactly does one become a Marilyn Monroe expert?

Can you get a degree in Marilyn Monroe studies from some place?


I'd imagine writing a biography is good enough to qualify you that.


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 4:58:25 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Popeye
In this day and age it's just natural to think that some Islamist terror group did it


Sorry to tell you pops, but if that kind of thinking comes "naturally" to you, then you're a naturally incorrect thinker. While that's a pretty good excuse for holding the views you do, it's not a good excuse to hold on those thoughts any more ..... and it does indicate the absolutely necessity of some changes.

So I'm looking forward to a complete re-thinking of your views by you. If you need some tips on incisive accurate political thinking and analysis, please feel free to PM me. I'll be only too glad to help you out.



God! PLEASE tell me you don't have a college degree!
Popeye certainly isnt alone in his thinking. A quote from the latest Reuters report...

"At first, people thought Muslims were behind this," he said, referring to some initial suspicions that the attacks might have been by Al Qaeda, perhaps in protest at NATO-member Norway's role in Afghanistan or Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-deems-killings-atrocious-needed-013354792.html


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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:10:58 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

And that is the problem with the media, they speculate from a position of influence, their speculation undoubtedly influences their readership and whatever elements exist within that readership. Whatever happened to just reporting the facts, you know what actually has happened, not what some opinionated twat thinks went on ?


It doesn't sell as well.

In fairness though, there are still reliable media sources.

But as with any job you have some who are better at what they do.



(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:18:07 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

And if anyone is interested in how the initial notion that Muslims were behind it spread (at least, in the media), here's a fairly decent analysis.



I think the problem is that there are so many media sources these days that it breeds sloppy journalism.

I was reading an AP article yesterday about this supposed Marilyn Monroe porn film where the writer quoted a Marilyn Monroe "expert".

How exactly does one become a Marilyn Monroe expert?

Can you get a degree in Marilyn Monroe studies from some place?


I'd imagine writing a biography is good enough to qualify you that.



Then I must be a CollarMe expert.

I've certainly read enough on here to write biographies on a lot of people. 

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:27:17 AM   
rawtape


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Aneirin and RML,

Part of this was really sloppy journalism, by the NYT, BBC, The Guardian, and The Washington Post, based apparently on comments on a blog and tweeter feed by Will McCants, who claims to be a terrorism expert. One would think, that after say, the Oklahoma bombing fiasco, where Steven Emerson, another so-called "terrorism expert" went on CBS News to proclaim that that too was the act of Muslims, these newspapers would have learned their lessons.

Briefly, McCants said that he read on a jihadi website Shmukh, not accessible to most folk, that a group called Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility. Note that such a group is not even known to exist by actual American intelligence officials, who do actually keep tabs on such forums and groups, albeit without blogging publicly about it. And I think, based on our experience here, we all know how internet forums can be a hotbed of hyperbolic and false claims. Now, to be fair, McCants did mention that the claim was retracted by the author "Abu Sulayman al-Nasir." In addition, McCants also said that the moderator of this forum declared that speculation about the attack would be prohibited because the contents of the forum were appearing in mainstream media. As the link which presents this analysis points out, "it does seem more than a little bit odd that genuine jihadis would post on a closed forum that a former US official and counterterrorism expert openly writes about infiltrating."

quote:

And that is the problem with the media, they speculate from a position of influence, their speculation undoubtedly influences their readership and whatever elements exist within that readership. Whatever happened to just reporting the facts, you know what actually has happened, not what some opinionated twat thinks went on ?


Unfortunately, newsmedia is now a business, and, in order to make money, they feel obliged to sell their readership/viewers/consumers the "news" that the latter "enjoy". And since the readership/viewers/consumers already have a certain bias, "news" slanted to satisfy that bias is what they get, thus reinforcing the bias and continuing the vicious cycle.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:29:59 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

And if anyone is interested in how the initial notion that Muslims were behind it spread (at least, in the media), here's a fairly decent analysis.



I think the problem is that there are so many media sources these days that it breeds sloppy journalism.

I was reading an AP article yesterday about this supposed Marilyn Monroe porn film where the writer quoted a Marilyn Monroe "expert".

How exactly does one become a Marilyn Monroe expert?

Can you get a degree in Marilyn Monroe studies from some place?


I'd imagine writing a biography is good enough to qualify you that.



Then I must be a CollarMe expert.

I've certainly read enough on here to write biographies on a lot of people. 


Would they be accurate though? You'd look pretty silly if you devoted a chapter to Wilbur's service in Vietnam and vast fortune and it turned out he was living in his mum's basement...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:37:37 AM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
"In this day and age it's just natural to think that some Islamist terror group did it, that's their modus operandi."

.....er....no?

ETA is closer to Norway than Iran. They have terrorists there, active one. Why didn't they cross anyone's mind?

Ulster is closer still, and while the organised terror organisations there have laid down their arms, there are still a few wackjobs. Why didn't that cross your mind, Pops?

Islamic terrorism is not the be all and end all of terrorism. Indeed, in the US House of Representatives you have a man that thinks the wikileaks thing was terrorism, but that IRA activities were not. Peter King. In that climate, isnt it rather predictable that people are really confused as to what terrorism actually is, and who perpetrates it?

Nephandi and Popeye are correct. It was reasonable to suspect it could have been a Muslim attack due to a spate of threats and embassy attacks going back to 2006 but some should have held off making firm judgements. Now people like Richard Silverstein are using this case as an excuse to batter their enemies and relativise all terror threats no matter how unlikely. Its not fair to suggest ETA and the IRA should have been considered suspects. Other than some activity in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks ETA has rarely attacked outside of Spain. The IRA attacked more commonly on foreign soil but to the best of my knowledge they never targeted the Scandinavian region. Certainly there have been no attacks related to Sweden, Norway or Denmark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969-1997#Casualties and in any case the Provisional IRA is no longer active, today only small splinter groups exist.


< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/24/2011 5:43:41 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:37:48 AM   
rawtape


Posts: 105
Joined: 10/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

And if anyone is interested in how the initial notion that Muslims were behind it spread (at least, in the media), here's a fairly decent analysis.



I think the problem is that there are so many media sources these days that it breeds sloppy journalism.

I was reading an AP article yesterday about this supposed Marilyn Monroe porn film where the writer quoted a Marilyn Monroe "expert".

How exactly does one become a Marilyn Monroe expert?

Can you get a degree in Marilyn Monroe studies from some place?


I'd imagine writing a biography is good enough to qualify you that.



Then I must be a CollarMe expert.

I've certainly read enough on here to write biographies on a lot of people. 


Would they be accurate though? You'd look pretty silly if you devoted a chapter to Wilbur's service in Vietnam and vast fortune and it turned out he was living in his mum's basement...

Moonie, do you care about it being accurate as long as it sells (the view of many news sources and experts nowadays)?

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:49:41 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It doesn't sell as well.

In fairness though, there are still reliable media sources.

But as with any job you have some who are better at what they do.


True enough, but I also think the modern 24 hour cycle is at least partially to blame for the "fast assumption, wrong judgement" issues.

Go back a few years (when I was working for a TV news provider) and you've got news programming of specific length, at specific times, and therefore deadlines, which lend themselves to the kind of editorial meetings where journalists and editors sit and discuss, item by item, what’s a) correct, b) newsworthy and c) its degree of accuracy. So a programme’s editor would have pieces taken from feeds (AP, Reuters, etc), stringer teams (indirectly employed semi-freelance) and news teams (fully employed staff teams), and the degree of faith in each source was a known and understood variable; in short, they knew the likely degree of either bullshit or inadvertent over-statement they were likely to get from a given item/statement/piece, and a deadline before which they had to make a call on it (which deadline also gave them a chance to cross-check whatever was being claimed).

And, further, a specific amount of time they could afford to dedicate to it; so the organisations valued pithy, punchy, concise writing that took its 2,3, 5, 10 minute, or however long slot (depending on its importance) and they “wrote to piece” – in other words, a good journo would be able to write to precisely the length of piece they were being asked to produce and, as they often did their own VT editing (with VT editors at their side in most cases, although some preferred to work alone), an appreciation of the tone, pace and punch-points within each piece they wanted the images to link with.

News doesn't work that way anymore; the 24 hour cycle, started by CNN, and adopted as a model pretty much across the globe now, is a constantly-changing, fast-moving and direct to transmission entity, and above all it is also highly competitive for time-to-air, not quality of product. So what matters most now is not how good a piece is, but how fast it reaches the viewer. This inevitably leads to short-cuts being taken with the editorial process, no matter how competent or professional the editor at the time (and there are good ones and bad ones, same as with any human endeavour).

In addition, the 24 hour cycle has massively increased the sheer amount of air time available; no longer is the programming focussed around half an hour of morning news (as opposed to magazine style programming with news drop ins), an hour at lunchtime, an hour in the evening, and a few bulletins in between – now it’s 24 hours of news, and even with lots of commercials that still leave acres more space to fill, so now every even slightly believable theory or opinion is blasted almost straight-to-air, without much in the way of editorial oversight.

Then there’s the change in personnel makeup and expertise – previously, newscasters were hard-core journalists whose reputation rode largely on their gravitas and ability to both write & contribute, and then deliver, the news. Now most of them are just talking heads, spewing forth whatever the teleprompter (and thus their editorial staff) direct them to, and so yet another “quality gate” fell by the wayside; I witnessed top-level newscasters, back in the day, reading their scripts before going to prompter (and yes, almost all of them checked scripting before it got anywhere near a teleprompter), and simply declaring “Sorry Frank, I don’t like X – it’s not me”, which was shorthand for “I, with my 30+ years in journalism, think this part of the report is highly suspect, so balls to me staking my reputation on stating it as fact” and, 9 times out of 10, the editor would cave and redo.

Lastly comes the rise of the “instant expert”; in days gone by the amount of time allocated to a subject expert was measure in seconds, or a few minutes at most, and with far fewer news outlets this tended to mean the market was very small, and thus for every position of expertise in a given subject area there were maybe 2-5 people in a given country, on a given topic, that the news agencies would bother to talk to, and these guys tended to be a) academic or fully accredited experts in their given field, with decades of practical experience and b) acutely aware that they were gambling with their professional reputation every time they opened their mouths, which tended to lead them to being thoughtful, taciturn, concise individuals, who incidentally weren’t being paid much other than expenses to be there; so no axe to grind, and no benefit in “sexing up” their opinions, because ridicule over just one overly exaggerated piece would be enough to see them mocked by their peers.

Now though, with so many news outlets, and so much time to be filled, just about anyone with an opinion and more than five minutes experience of the field under discussion is dragged in off the streets, often paid well for their time, and above all are in a situation where the “sexier” they can make their input, then the more likely they are to achieve recognition, and therefore higher income.

Put all those factors together, add in the largely media-derived paranoia over certain terrorist outfits, and you've got your explanation for why accuracy and concise delivery are not now the goals of most news organisations.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 5:50:54 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I've certainly read enough on here to write biographies on a lot of people.

But you don't own our clothes.

K.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 6:04:10 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:


Unfortunately, newsmedia is now a business, and, in order to make money, they feel obliged to sell their readership/viewers/consumers the "news" that the latter "enjoy". And since the readership/viewers/consumers already have a certain bias, "news" slanted to satisfy that bias is what they get, thus reinforcing the bias and continuing the vicious cycle.


And that is why I do not partake of media beyond catching the headlines both local and international via radio, where the facts are announced, not oppinion pieces. Newspapers and magazines, being a disposable product I view as an unholy waste of trees.

But what drew me to my conclusions regarding the media was my ex wife and her interest in such sources as THE SUN and the now thankfully gone News Of The World, with her I watched a person seemingly eager as if seeking an intoxicant to read the shite printed on those pages. As the minutes passed by she became more angry and opinionated as to the happenings in the world, for she was effectively, the rabble being roused, I watched the effect and I did not like it and I do hold the media responsible for a lot of the ill feeling in the world around us, the prejudices, the violence and the hatred. A media source, certain newspapers especially act as unifying entity for the troublesome in our lives, but the trouble is the troublesome don't realise they are being had, not only are they paying money for their bile, but the media source feeds on them when it is they are tipped over the edge.

The above mentioned newspapers were I believe a factor in the destruction of my marriage, as I watched a person influenced by red rag bile grow away from me.

The trouble is, when families are poor, they tend to look for reasons why they are poor and you will notice the newspapers always suggest people to blame, whether it be the immigrant, the benefit scrounger or whatever other pariah the newspaper industry has chosen to villify that day.

My disdain for media was further enhanced when it was I for a university paper investigated the role of photography in warfare and with it my research revealed a very improper use of digital cell phone imagery in places of conflict, images which the media purchases or obtains in other ways for the irresponsible reporting of things that might not have happened, things which go on to cause death and destruction for the want of irrresponsible news manufacture.

Therefore I do believe the media is responsible for much of the problems we have in our world, but hey, it's a business, not a service, we actually pay to provide businesses with more bussiness, how stupid can we be.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 6:04:47 AM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I've certainly read enough on here to write biographies on a lot of people.

But you don't own our clothes.

K.


...and it's not her for sure. If he gets a dime, I'll be amazed, unless some billionaire dot.com 'loser' way over pays for it.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 6:19:13 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

And that is why I do not partake of media beyond catching the headlines both local and international via radio, where the facts are announced, not oppinion pieces. Newspapers and magazines, being a disposable product I view as an unholy waste of trees.


I agree as far as 24 hour news programming is concerned, but I still feel many quality newspapers are worthwhile endeavours, for the reasons I've outlined, among others.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 6:51:25 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
The 24 hour and indeed the BBC revolving news on the tv in the morning irritates me with it's unfolding events, for the times that I have heard it, I have witnessed the facts change, and sometimes the commentator adds; someone says, some say, it is believed that, which indicates to me oppinions and quite possible fabrications to illicit the attention of the unstable and undoubtedly create an interest in their media reporting.

But I have also observed the tone in which the reporting is presented, to me it comes across as urgent as if time was short and yes sensationalist in a horrific way as if the commentator was excited by what they were reporting, so sometimes I can just imagine the glee on the commentators face for having something big to report, they seem to revel in their reporting.

The media as a business I believe does not care about people beyond their capacity to make the business money.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 8:21:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I dont recall anyone jumping to conclusions, just commenting on likelihood. My odds were 3:1, and I think a 75% chance that any terrorist attack in Norway is still pretty reasonable.


Well how does it feel to know that what you consider reasonable is incorrect?


Since I expected that there was a 25% chance of being incorrect, it feels fine.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Media and the Oslo attacks - 7/24/2011 8:22:58 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

offering 3.1 odds wasnt jumping to anything LMFAO, nah a gentle bet... so appropriate. and telling



3:1 odds are only a 75% probability.

So, it was only "75%" jumping to conclusions Lucy.


Another one who doesnt understand English.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 40
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