quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

Aneirin and RML,

Part of this was really sloppy journalism, by the NYT, BBC, The Guardian, and The Washington Post, based apparently on comments on a blog and tweeter feed by Will McCants, who claims to be a terrorism expert. One would think, that after say, the Oklahoma bombing fiasco, where Steven Emerson, another so-called "terrorism expert" went on CBS News to proclaim that that too was the act of Muslims, these newspapers would have learned their lessons.

Briefly, McCants said that he read on a jihadi website Shmukh, not accessible to most folk, that a group called Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility. Note that such a group is not even known to exist by actual American intelligence officials, who do actually keep tabs on such forums and groups, albeit without blogging publicly about it. And I think, based on our experience here, we all know how internet forums can be a hotbed of hyperbolic and false claims. Now, to be fair, McCants did mention that the claim was retracted by the author "Abu Sulayman al-Nasir." In addition, McCants also said that the moderator of this forum declared that speculation about the attack would be prohibited because the contents of the forum were appearing in mainstream media. As the link which presents this analysis points out, "it does seem more than a little bit odd that genuine jihadis would post on a closed forum that a former US official and counterterrorism expert openly writes about infiltrating."

quote:

And that is the problem with the media, they speculate from a position of influence, their speculation undoubtedly influences their readership and whatever elements exist within that readership. Whatever happened to just reporting the facts, you know what actually has happened, not what some opinionated twat thinks went on ?

Unfortunately, newsmedia is now a business, and, in order to make money, they feel obliged to sell their readership/viewers/consumers the "news" that the latter "enjoy". And since the readership/viewers/consumers already have a certain bias, "news" slanted to satisfy that bias is what they get, thus reinforcing the bias and continuing the vicious cycle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Given the history of al-Qaeda in Norway, I'll lay you 3:1 it was Islamic terrorism.

I dont recall anyone jumping to conclusions, just commenting on likelihood. My odds were 3:1, and I think a 75% chance that any terrorist attack in Norway is still pretty reasonable.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

offering 3.1 odds wasnt jumping to anything LMFAO, nah a gentle bet... so appropriate. and telling

3:1 odds are only a 75% probability.

So, it was only "75%" jumping to conclusions Lucy.

Another one who doesnt understand English.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape


Briefly, McCants said that he read on a jihadi website Shmukh, not accessible to most folk, that a group called Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape


Briefly, McCants said that he read on a jihadi website Shmukh, not accessible to most folk, that a group called Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility.

Schmuck, huh? LMAO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Muslims? Hell in Yahoo News the Wacko Lefties were saying it was "Israel" and "the Mossad" that did it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

ETA is closer to Norway than Iran. They have terrorists there, active one. Why didn't they cross anyone's mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Muslims? Hell in Yahoo News the Wacko Lefties were saying it was "Israel" and "the Mossad" that did it!

Actually, Mossad is one of two organizations to ever commit acts of terrorism on Norwegian soil.

They were caught killing a man on his way home from the cinema with his very pregnant wife with several rounds at point blank range. It wasn't the guy they were after, incidentally. These five (IIRC) agents killed the wrong guy. And messed with the wrong country, because after the interrogation, we publicly disclosed their network of safehouses in Europe. Then we extradited the agents to the countries whose passports they had stolen. Mossad had to scram like hell to get their people out of the compromised safehouses. That was a non-military act of retaliation, and there was no further attempt at getting the guy they were actually after.

Nobody moderate pointed a finger at the potential for a vengeance motive (Israel has a long memory),

quote:


but a lot of people pointed their fingers at muslims, even before the media did. Which is precisely the kind of people this attacker wanted to appeal to, as he voices the exact same concerns they do in his manifesto. Indeed, any reasonable individual with a touch of islamophobia should pause to think on that. Jihadist organizations are a concern. But becoming an islamophobe is simply becoming what one beholds: one who is willing to hit entire groups of innocent people for the actions of a few.

quote:


Ideologies don't kill people. People kill people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
ETA is closer to Norway than Iran. They have terrorists there, active one. Why didn't they cross anyone's mind?

Or splinter groups from the IRA... unless they're to busy heading up Homeland Security now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

If you recall, immediately after White, Conservative terrorist Timothy McVeigh set off the bomb in Oklahoma City, FOX-News reported that the bombing was the work of Islamic terrorists.

To date, they have never issued a retraction or correction - they just ignored their previous news story and acted like they never said it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
If you recall, immediately after White, Conservative terrorist Timothy McVeigh set off the bomb in Oklahoma City, FOX-News reported that the bombing was the work of Islamic terrorists.

To date, they have never issued a retraction or correction - they just ignored their previous news story and acted like they never said it.

quote:

In much media reportage, Mr. Breivik has been characterised as a deranged loner: a Muslim-hating Christian fanatic whose ideas and actions placed him outside of society. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mr. Breivik's mode of praxis was, in fact, entirely consistent with the periodic acts of mass violence European fascists have carried out since World War II. More important, Mr. Breivik's ideas...were firmly rooted in mainstream right-wing discourse...

Little attention, the scholar Bruce Hoffman noted in a 1984 paper, had been paid to right-wing terrorists by Europe's police forces. Their eyes, firmly focussed on left-wing organisations, had characterised the right “as ‘kooks', ‘clowns', ‘little Fuhrers', and, with regard to their young, ‘political punk rockers'.”...

In a thoughtful 2008 report, a consortium of Dutch organisations noted that “right-wing terrorism is not always labelled as such.” Because “right-wing movements use the local traditions, values, and characteristics to define their own identity,” the report argued, “many non-rightist citizens recognize and even sympathize with some of the organization's political opinions”...

Mr. Breivik's ideas, it is important to note, were echoes of ideas in mainstream European neo-conservatism. In 1978, the former British Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, famously referred to popular fears that Britain “might be swamped by people of a different culture.” In 1989, Ms Thatcher asserted that “human rights did not begin with the French Revolution.” Instead, they “really stem from a mixture of Judaism and Christianity” - in other words, faith, not reason.

In recent years, key European politicians have also used language not dissimilar to Mr Brevik. Last year, Angela Merkel asserted that multikulti, or multiculturalism, had failed. David Cameron, too, assailed “the doctrine of state multiculturalism,” which he said had “encouraged different cultures to live separate lives.” France's Nicolas Sarkozy was more blunt: “multiculturalism is a failure. The truth is that in our democracies, we cared too much about the identity of the migrant and not sufficiently about the identity of the country that welcomed him.”

Mr. Brevik's grievance was that these politicians were unwilling to act on their words — and that the people he claimed to love for cared too little to rebel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

In much media reportage, Mr. Breivik has been characterised as a deranged loner: a Muslim-hating Christian fanatic whose ideas and actions placed him outside of society. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mr. Breivik's mode of praxis was, in fact, entirely consistent with the periodic acts of mass violence European fascists have carried out since World War II. More important, Mr. Breivik's ideas...were firmly rooted in mainstream right-wing discourse...

Little attention, the scholar Bruce Hoffman noted in a 1984 paper, had been paid to right-wing terrorists by Europe's police forces. Their eyes, firmly focussed on left-wing organisations, had characterised the right “as ‘kooks', ‘clowns', ‘little Fuhrers', and, with regard to their young, ‘political punk rockers'.”...

In a thoughtful 2008 report, a consortium of Dutch organisations noted that “right-wing terrorism is not always labelled as such.” Because “right-wing movements use the local traditions, values, and characteristics to define their own identity,” the report argued, “many non-rightist citizens recognize and even sympathize with some of the organization's political opinions”...

Mr. Breivik's ideas, it is important to note, were echoes of ideas in mainstream European neo-conservatism. In 1978, the former British Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, famously referred to popular fears that Britain “might be swamped by people of a different culture.” In 1989, Ms Thatcher asserted that “human rights did not begin with the French Revolution.” Instead, they “really stem from a mixture of Judaism and Christianity” - in other words, faith, not reason.

In recent years, key European politicians have also used language not dissimilar to Mr Brevik. Last year, Angela Merkel asserted that multikulti, or multiculturalism, had failed. David Cameron, too, assailed “the doctrine of state multiculturalism,” which he said had “encouraged different cultures to live separate lives.” France's Nicolas Sarkozy was more blunt: “multiculturalism is a failure. The truth is that in our democracies, we cared too much about the identity of the migrant and not sufficiently about the identity of the country that welcomed him.”

Mr. Brevik's grievance was that these politicians were unwilling to act on their words — and that the people he claimed to love for cared too little to rebel.

quote:


* Left-wing terrorism is an outside threat to your country and always comes as part of a vast multi-national conspiracy.

* Right-wing terrorism is just mis-guided patriotism on the part of one individual who came up with the idea all by themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Are you seriously equating a few stroppy anticapitalists rioting at a protest with some cunt shooting children?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Er... no I wasn't as I was referring principally to terrorist groups. However, part of the issue in this debate is about political violence generally, which others have said is far worse on the right than on the left. Violence comes in many forms. Premeditated violence on left-wing marches is a serious issue in many parts of Europe. In Greece it is on a massive scale where a fair few people have died, and a few hundred million dollars of damage has been caused, amidst repeated attempts to actually shut down democratic institutions. Its not hard to see that that has some similarity to the milder forms of conventional terrorism.

quote:

Roseburg, Oregon: A small political gathering of about 18 liberal thinkers at River Forks Park Sunday afternoon erupted in conflict when about 35 members of the conservative tea party intruded upon the meeting, waving flags and holding signs accusing the rival group of being communists, Marxists and socialists.

The liberal group — organized by MoveOn.org — decided to leave the park and move its potluck to a nearby home. Members of the conservative group followed, parking at the entrance of a private lane leading to the home to continue their protest.

Roseburg Democrats Dean and Sara Byers said Monday they told tea party members who followed that they were not welcome to drive down the lane to their home.

The Byerses said they got out of their car to stop vehicles from entering the driveway and one tea party member almost ran them over...

Members of the smaller group said Monday they were intimidated by the tea partiers, whom they accused of violating their constitutional right to peacefully assembly.

Roseburg resident Lillen Fifield, 70, called the group's actions an “act of domestic terrorism” and said she was appalled that a peaceful gathering — mostly of women older than 65 — was interrupted.

“It is not OK to go around and intimidate and threaten people. That is not acceptable in a polite society,” Fifield said...

A leader of the tea party group, Rich Raynor of Roseburg, disputed the liberal group's version of events.

“They are liars,” said Raynor, director of Douglas County Americans for Prosperity. “That is what communists do.”

Raynor said his group believes MoveOn.org is a communist front.

Sara Byers said she could not believe the meeting was targeted for protest. She said the group supports the middle class and wants to take back the government from the stranglehold of corporations.

She laughed at the accusations of communism and said the two groups actually have more in common than people think.

“I just said, ‘Are you kidding me?' ” Byers said.

Tea party members posted a 2:46-minute video of the confrontation in the park and added captions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Political showdown creates conflict in Roseburg park

quote:

Roseburg, Oregon: A small political gathering of about 18 liberal thinkers at River Forks Park Sunday afternoon erupted in conflict when about 35 members of the conservative tea party intruded upon the meeting, waving flags and holding signs accusing the rival group of being communists, Marxists and socialists.

The liberal group — organized by MoveOn.org — decided to leave the park and move its potluck to a nearby home. Members of the conservative group followed, parking at the entrance of a private lane leading to the home to continue their protest.

Roseburg Democrats Dean and Sara Byers said Monday they told tea party members who followed that they were not welcome to drive down the lane to their home.

The Byerses said they got out of their car to stop vehicles from entering the driveway and one tea party member almost ran them over...

Members of the smaller group said Monday they were intimidated by the tea partiers, whom they accused of violating their constitutional right to peacefully assembly.

Roseburg resident Lillen Fifield, 70, called the group's actions an “act of domestic terrorism” and said she was appalled that a peaceful gathering — mostly of women older than 65 — was interrupted.

“It is not OK to go around and intimidate and threaten people. That is not acceptable in a polite society,” Fifield said...

A leader of the tea party group, Rich Raynor of Roseburg, disputed the liberal group's version of events.

“They are liars,” said Raynor, director of Douglas County Americans for Prosperity. “That is what communists do.”

Raynor said his group believes MoveOn.org is a communist front.

Sara Byers said she could not believe the meeting was targeted for protest. She said the group supports the middle class and wants to take back the government from the stranglehold of corporations.

She laughed at the accusations of communism and said the two groups actually have more in common than people think.

“I just said, ‘Are you kidding me?' ” Byers said.

Tea party members posted a 2:46-minute video of the confrontation in the park and added captions.