RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement" & "Obligation"

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RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 10:59:48 AM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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How we define a term or a word makes a big difference in a rational discussion.

I participate on vanilla Internet discussion boards on the topics of Politics & Religion as well as this one.

On one, I posted my concern that, if the government went into default, my Army retirement check (I served 27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves) and my military disability check (hearing loss due to an exploding IED) might be affected.

One self-identified Tea Party supporter responded that my Army retirement check and my military disability checks were "entitlements" and not "obligations". The poster took the position that military retirement checks and military disability checks were the same as welfare checks and should be eliminated as part of the overall plan to reduce "big government" and "excessive government spending".

I contend that my Army retirement checks and my disability checks are "obligations" on the part of the federal government based on the contract I made with the United States for my 27 years of military service.

I acknowledge that this individual, though they claim to be a Tea Party member, may not reflect the general position of all Tea Party members.

In the context of federal government expenditures, do you define retirement checks and medical disability checks to military and civilian federal government employees "entitlements" or "obligations"?

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 7/29/2011 11:02:24 AM >

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

Post #: 1

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 11:03:09 AM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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It's "entitlement" if the Democrats think it's something that needs funding and an "obligation" if it's something the Republicans think needs funding.
Simples!

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 2

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 12:36:59 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

FR

Army retirement benefits are an obligation, period. They are deferred compensation that was earned and cannot be taken away or suspended. Veterans benefits (including, I assume, your disability payments) are a little murkier and depend on when you served, when you enlisted/were drafted and when you were discharged. I dont think its a real issue though. Obama isnt insane enough to suspend/eliminate them.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 3

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 12:40:45 PM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Army retirement benefits are an obligation, period. They are deferred compensation that was earned and cannot be taken away or suspended. Veterans benefits (including, I assume, your disability payments) are a little murkier and depend on when you served, when you enlisted/were drafted and when you were discharged. I dont think its a real issue though. Obama isnt insane enough to suspend/eliminate them.

I love the genius of Moonhead. Really...quite funny. Yes, Army retirements are an obligation--Welfare is not, HUD housing is not. Social Security is and so is Medicare.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 4

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 12:45:41 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

That`s what Moonhead said.

So we`re clear.

_____________________________

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President Obama

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 5

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 12:52:04 PM

gaybottomslave

Posts: 35
Joined: 7/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

How we define a term or a word makes a big difference in a rational discussion.

I participate on vanilla Internet discussion boards on the topics of Politics & Religion as well as this one.

On one, I posted my concern that, if the government went into default, my Army retirement check (I served 27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves) and my military disability check (hearing loss due to an exploding IED) might be affected.

One self-identified Tea Party supporter responded that my Army retirement check and my military disability checks were "entitlements" and not "obligations". The poster took the position that military retirement checks and military disability checks were the same as welfare checks and should be eliminated as part of the overall plan to reduce "big government" and "excessive government spending".

I contend that my Army retirement checks and my disability checks are "obligations" on the part of the federal government based on the contract I made with the United States for my 27 years of military service.

I acknowledge that this individual, though they claim to be a Tea Party member, may not reflect the general position of all Tea Party members.

In the context of federal government expenditures, do you define retirement checks and medical disability checks to military and civilian federal government employees "entitlements" or "obligations"?

An entitlement is something that no work or effort is needed to abtain but those receiving said entitlement think that they deserve it nonetheless and that it can never be cut or reduced, see: medicaid, medicare, welfare in general, etc.

An obligation is what the government has to spend: food/equipment/pay for the militaries, maintaining of federal highways/infastructure, etc.

If I had my way, the federal government would be involved in: National defense, space exploration, border security, foreign diplomacy and maintaining of infastructure both roads and communications and that's about it.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 6

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 12:57:21 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

You are using general and subjective definitions of what is an entitlement vs an obligation. Its a LEGAL issue, not a subjective one.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to gaybottomslave)

Post #: 7

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:02:41 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

legally, what they are are perfect and imperfect obligations. How perfect those obligations are, (and contrarily, how imperfect they are) is a matter of legal interpretation.

that may or may not lead to legal challenge (and in this case I am perfectly certain, no matter what, it will)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 8

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:14:08 PM

gaybottomslave

Posts: 35
Joined: 7/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You are using general and subjective definitions of what is an entitlement vs an obligation. Its a LEGAL issue, not a subjective one.

The decision to maintain current spending levels is not a legal issue. There is no law mandating how much to spend on anything. As such, Congress has the subjective authority to raise or lower what is spent.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 9

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:19:43 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaybottomslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You are using general and subjective definitions of what is an entitlement vs an obligation. Its a LEGAL issue, not a subjective one.

The decision to maintain current spending levels is not a legal issue. There is no law mandating how much to spend on anything. As such, Congress has the subjective authority to raise or lower what is spent.

Try to keep up. The topic of the thread is FD's existing benefits, which are most certainly a legal issue.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to gaybottomslave)

Post #: 10

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:24:37 PM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

That`s what Moonhead said.

So we`re clear.

The stupidity is endless, eh? Even closer to the weekend, lucidity does not take hold. That is NOT what Moonhead said. I have a weekend drink calling my name so be a good boy and ask Willbe to explain what Moonhead said.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 11

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:27:35 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

That would be akin to asking a cabbage what its fundamental prime directive is in this universe.

It would not lead to any form of enlightenment whatsovever.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 12

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:31:13 PM

gaybottomslave

Posts: 35
Joined: 7/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaybottomslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You are using general and subjective definitions of what is an entitlement vs an obligation. Its a LEGAL issue, not a subjective one.

The decision to maintain current spending levels is not a legal issue. There is no law mandating how much to spend on anything. As such, Congress has the subjective authority to raise or lower what is spent.

Try to keep up. The topic of the thread is FD's existing benefits, which are most certainly a legal issue.

No you dumbass, the topic is what is an entitlement versus what is an obligation. The OP merely used himself as an example. If you're going to be an insulting prick then at least try and be right about what you're saying.

The federal budget can be cut...Congress simply chooses not to.

< Message edited by gaybottomslave -- 7/29/2011 1:32:56 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 13

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:33:37 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

That`s what Moonhead said.

So we`re clear.

The stupidity is endless, eh? Even closer to the weekend, lucidity does not take hold. That is NOT what Moonhead said. I have a weekend drink calling my name so be a good boy and ask Willbe to explain what Moonhead said.

Dont ask me, moon is invisible.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 14

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 1:37:56 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

First and foremost, thank you for your service, Flight. As far as I'm concerned your benefits have been earned so you are absolutely entitled to them and the government is absolutely obligated to pay them.

That's just the way I roll. I'll let the mouthpiece guys sort out the legalize on the subject.. it won't be changing my mind nor my gratitude to you and the men and women like you.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 15

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 2:02:04 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's "entitlement" if the Democrats think it's something that needs funding and an "obligation" if it's something the Republicans think needs funding.
Simples!

It's the...other way around. To the repubs...it's an entitlement that needs to be cut. To the dems...an obligation that must be paid as a contract responsibility.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 16

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 2:11:52 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That would be akin to asking a cabbage what its fundamental prime directive is in this universe.

It would not lead to any form of enlightenment whatsovever.

Yea, sometimes I too equate the CM Politics & Religion forum to a cabbage head, it being fundamentally anti-intellectual and ya'know...so bereft of enlightenment.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/29/2011 2:40:54 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 17

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 2:34:25 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaybottomslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

How we define a term or a word makes a big difference in a rational discussion.

I participate on vanilla Internet discussion boards on the topics of Politics & Religion as well as this one.

On one, I posted my concern that, if the government went into default, my Army retirement check (I served 27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves) and my military disability check (hearing loss due to an exploding IED) might be affected.

One self-identified Tea Party supporter responded that my Army retirement check and my military disability checks were "entitlements" and not "obligations". The poster took the position that military retirement checks and military disability checks were the same as welfare checks and should be eliminated as part of the overall plan to reduce "big government" and "excessive government spending".

I contend that my Army retirement checks and my disability checks are "obligations" on the part of the federal government based on the contract I made with the United States for my 27 years of military service.

I acknowledge that this individual, though they claim to be a Tea Party member, may not reflect the general position of all Tea Party members.

In the context of federal government expenditures, do you define retirement checks and medical disability checks to military and civilian federal government employees "entitlements" or "obligations"?

An entitlement is something that no work or effort is needed to abtain but those receiving said entitlement think that they deserve it nonetheless and that it can never be cut or reduced, see: medicaid, medicare, welfare in general, etc.

An obligation is what the government has to spend: food/equipment/pay for the militaries, maintaining of federal highways/infastructure, etc.

If I had my way, the federal government would be involved in: National defense, space exploration, border security, foreign diplomacy and maintaining of infastructure both roads and communications and that's about it.

This even though there is a box on paychecks labeled 'Medicare ?'

Entitlement is a term conjured up by the right wing capitalist/corporatist propagandists. They have very successfully introduced and instilled this word into all such basic discussions through their influence (purchase) of media and mostly right wing politicians.

As Lincoln warned 'playing upon the prejudices of the people.' So you never hear of the capitalist entitlements like govt. run single payer govt. insurance for banks and investors. You never hear of farm and ethanol subsidies called 'entitlements.' You never hear of the immorally favorable treatment of capital gains and carried interests in our tax code...whatever they are...as entitlements but yet, they are just that.

The discouraging and hypocritical aspect is...the capitalist/corporatists actually do believe they are 'entitled.' They were 'entitled' to TARP. They were really 'entitled' to bonuses. See how easy it is to feel just so...entitled ?

(in reply to gaybottomslave)

Post #: 18

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 3:24:23 PM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's "entitlement" if the Democrats think it's something that needs funding and an "obligation" if it's something the Republicans think needs funding.
Simples!

It's the...other way around. To the repubs...it's an entitlement that needs to be cut. To the dems...an obligation that must be paid as a contract responsibility.

If your comments are specifically geared towards retirement and disability pay for veterans, then I suspect you'll find most Republicans (the real ones... not politicians) do not consider those payments as up for consideration to be cut. Those veterans who are recipients earned those benefits, and the Government is obligated to pay them.

Social Security and Medicare lean more toward obligation than entitlement, by virtue of the fact that citizens have been contributing funds throughout their working lives with the good faith understanding that those funds would be returned to them when needed.

However, being a contributing member of a fund (either private or public)... even if involuntarily... does carry the obligation to be informed about the purpose and status of that fund. In the case of Social Security, it was never intended to be a full pension program for Americans. It has also never been a secret that Social Security benefits are not sufficient to provide a comfortable retirement.

In other words, capable members of society have always had the obligation to take steps necessary to care for themselves... which includes planning for retirement.

Welfare/charity is not a Government obligation. It is a societal obligation and should be handled at that level. And no, I'm not a cold-hearted bitch who would see the poor, elderly and disabled suffer from the misfortunes of life. I take responsibility for my own, and I am generous with others in need.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 19

RE: Budget differences - Define "Entitlement"... - 7/29/2011 3:49:00 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaybottomslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You are using general and subjective definitions of what is an entitlement vs an obligation. Its a LEGAL issue, not a subjective one.

The decision to maintain current spending levels is not a legal issue. There is no law mandating how much to spend on anything. As such, Congress has the subjective authority to raise or lower what is spent.

Would you care to bet there are no laws mandating how much money to spend on various line items?

(in reply to gaybottomslave)

Post #: 20

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