RE: Did anyone else notice .. (Full Version)

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JWriter -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:34:18 PM)

quote:

but anyway, the comment that you can't be misogynistic because you're a woman is really silly. =p of course women can be misogynists (i've met several, who were all, oddly, female dominants). just like black people can be racist, and some vegetarians wear leather shoes. doi.


Oh, women can hate women, to be sure. But, misogyny is not just hating a woman. It is hating a woman for being a woman. That precludes survival of self, if the self is a woman. If I hated women to that extent, I would kill myself for being one. That's what happens. So, no, it is not possible for a woman to exist who is a misogynist.

However, it is very possible for a woman to exist who doesn't like women in general, who is extremely jealous of women, who is in fear of women, or, who hates individual women on a case-by-case basis. It is not misogyny.

I don't object to the fact that someone intimates that it sounds like someone who doesn't like women. I object to the inaccuracy of the word.

Aside from which, there is nothing about the original post that would sound misogynistic, even if it had been posted by a man. It was not about what's wrong with women. It was about how most men, regardless of what they say they are, still seek to oppress women, and is, therefore, in favor of women, not against them.

It was these other women who sounded like they just wanted to tear me apart for being female, without even considering what the post was really about. I do not claim they are misogynists, however, as they obviously love themselves a little too well.



Lockit -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

Well, this certainly devolved rather quickly. It had the potential to be an interesting discourse on the state of feminist thought and the feminine condition. As it is it's unnecessarily contentious dross as far as the eye can see. Regrettable.


That might be a great topic! However, you can't start something good from the place this one started, with the history and muck that just took place.



JWriter -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:35:48 PM)

quote:

Well, this certainly devolved rather quickly. It had the potential to be an interesting discourse on the state of feminist thought and the feminine condition. As it is it's unnecessarily contentious dross as far as the eye can see. Regrettable.


I think so, too. However, it would be less regrettable, if someone would simply read the post and respond to what it actually says, rather than their feelings about the poster, or, their assumptions as to the feelings behind the post, itself.



Lockit -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:35:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

quote:

but anyway, the comment that you can't be misogynistic because you're a woman is really silly. =p of course women can be misogynists (i've met several, who were all, oddly, female dominants). just like black people can be racist, and some vegetarians wear leather shoes. doi.


Oh, women can hate women, to be sure. But, misogyny is not just hating a woman. It is hating a woman for being a woman. That precludes survival of self, if the self is a woman. If I hated women to that extent, I would kill myself for being one. That's what happens. So, no, it is not possible for a woman to exist who is a misogynist.

However, it is very possible for a woman to exist who doesn't like women in general, who is extremely jealous of women, who is in fear of women, or, who hates individual women on a case-by-case basis. It is not misogyny.

I don't object to the fact that someone intimates that it sounds like someone who doesn't like women. I object to the inaccuracy of the word.

Aside from which, there is nothing about the original post that would sound misogynistic, even if it had been posted by a man. It was not about what's wrong with women. It was about how most men, regardless of what they say they are, still seek to oppress women, and is, therefore, in favor of women, not against them.

It was these other women who sounded like they just wanted to tear me apart for being female, without even considering what the post was really about. I do not claim they are misogynists, however, as they obviously love themselves a little too well.


That's some log in your eye.



Marisol -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:38:39 PM)

Oh, boy. You want me to answer your question? No, I do not notice this so much.

I think you're stereotyping. I think more than a few here wish to take those "pointy toed shoes" and shove them up your ass.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:38:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

Well, this certainly devolved rather quickly. It had the potential to be an interesting discourse on the state of feminist thought and the feminine condition. As it is it's unnecessarily contentious dross as far as the eye can see. Regrettable.


That might be a great topic!


We already did that as part of Heather's Male vs Female dominance thread.  It devolved almost as rapidly and it started from a much better place.  Could we wait a few more months before we revisit this particular chestnut?  Please and thank you.



Lockit -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:39:51 PM)

[:D][:D][:D][:D] I must have missed that one!



JWriter -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:40:11 PM)

quote:

listen up doughnut hole, you made a fucked up little rant about how men don't fucking find you attractive.


No, actually I did not. For one thing, I've never had that problem, in my life. Well, yes, with certain men, as everyone has, but, never where there were no men who found me attractive. Come on! Does that really happen? I've never met a woman, yet, who didn't have several men following her about, wanting her, unless it was by her choice.

It's silly to think that just because a woman doesn't look or act like you, that it means no one finds her attractive. I'm quite sure men find you attractive, though I am equally sure I don't.

It was not a rant. It was an observation. And, it is not your place to tell me where my humor lies.
It is provably an observation, by the fact that it started with asking if anyone else noticed ..

Duh!

I would quite welcome your observations, if you had any. I just don't welcome your bitchy little tirades and insults. Thank you for understanding.



Epytropos -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:41:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
We already did that as part of Heather's Male vs Female dominance thread.  It devolved almost as rapidly and it started from a much better place.  Could we wait a few more months before we revisit this particular chestnut?  Please and thank you.


I fear I missed that thread.



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:42:04 PM)

Holy fuckamoly, people.  The OP has a real and serious point.  It really is like that, in stereotypical images of both female dominance and female submission.  And I agree, it sucks.  And it is a topic worth bringing out into the open for discussion.  This meme may be one of the reasons that many women who are dominant by nature don't see anything fun or sexy about "femdom" and want nothing to do with this culture as they perceive it.

I don't blame them.  Because that's the experience we are likely to have as dominant women in the scene, and there just isn't anything fun about it for a woman who is not into offering up her uncomfortably latex-bound T&A for demanding guys to ogle and feel entitled to judge.  Wonder why there is a significant imbalance in the male to female ratio in some areas?  This would be one of the reasons.  The visible culture caters to men as consumers, women as objects to be used, enjoyed and consumed.  This is fine if you are oriented male dominant female submissive, but if you aren't, there's a pretty big mental disconnect here when it comes to the image of a dominant woman. 

I'm not talking about local communities and Munches; they tend to have built in reality checks that the online scene lacks.  The best of the femdom groups I've been involved in have been run by women primarily for women, so we don't have the bad-porno-stereotype expectations.  But where those expectations do exist, women either go pro, leave in annoyance, or spend a lot of time and energy setting and enforcing their personal boundaries to avoid being treated as things. 

This topic is very much worthwhile and echoes many of the things I've posted in the past about sexual dominance and gender roles.  I would ask that we give it the respect it deserves. 



JWriter -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:42:42 PM)

quote:

We already did that as part of Heather's Male vs Female dominance thread.  It devolved almost as rapidly and it started from a much better place.


My post was not anything to do with male versus female. And, I do not think humorous observations are bad places. It's the first few people who read it, who seemed to be in a bad place, where they could only read in a negative light.

If they cared to read it, and, make their own observations, or deny noticing it, or whatever, in a positive, non-insulting where no offense had yet been given, sort of way, things would be quite lovely. Or, boring. But, not bad.

End of story.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:43:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

[:D][:D][:D][:D] I must have missed that one!


It was spawned by Focus50's thread on the same topic but with less BS in the OP.  It all went downhill when the forum's least aware poster decided to get involved.  Heather was brilliant during those exchanges.  That, alone, made it worth reading.



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:45:24 PM)

quote:

if someone would simply read the post and respond to what it actually says, rather than their feelings about the poster

i did ya stunned cunt, you just didn't fucking like my response. i don't know a fucking thing about you other than you're blaming men for your failure to attract one. maybe a quick peek in the mirror is called for here.

oh yeah, also that you're one of those fucking delusional god types, so your intellect is already by definition suspect. well tell you what, you don't fucking like my opinions, don't whine and cry about it, just pray to your asshole in the sky to strike me down. zap me baby!



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:50:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

.. that, in the majority, the same expectations and requirements exist for all females, whether subs, slaves, switches, Dommes, or, etc?

Dress in leather.
Wear pointy-toed shoes
Offer me your ass.
Beguile me with your cunt and tits
Spend my money, but, only on things that please me.
If you want something from me, perform to my expectations first.
Look like an Auschwitz victim, by weight.
Wear bright red lipstick.
Keep yourself impeccably groomed at all times.
Don't expect me to pay for it.
Never be comfortable.
Never be weak.
Never be human.
Try not to speak.

In photos, the only way you can tell the difference between a "Mistress" and a "slave girl", most of the time is by whether she is standing or kneeling. Sometimes, you can't tell, even then.

And, apparently, both are 24/7 jobs of enforced activity, to heighten the male sense and drain the male libido.



This is like asking if have we've noticed a majority of the males (dom or sub) on the profile side watch too much porn and stereotype the womens.

Well, hell yes, not being a total blubbering moron, I have noticed. I am going to rush waaaaaaaaay out on a limb here and say, I'm *not* the only one.

For a self proclaimed writer you appear to have forgotten a major rule: know your audience. B/c they get all pissed off when you talk down to them. Also, talking around your subject, as opposed to actually addressing it, leads to confusion.

But ah, carry on . . .



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:50:41 PM)

quote:

Heather was brilliant during those exchanges.  That, alone, made it worth reading.
<BLUSH!> Thanks. [:)]



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:54:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
It was spawned by Focus50's thread on the same topic but with less BS in the OP.


Where the fuck do you see BS in the original post on this thread?  Granted, I read it after it appears to have been edited, but as it stands now, I don't see anything but absolute truth about the shallow and frankly much more submissive than dominant stereotypical expectations of what a femdom should look like and act like.  And I agree that they are utterly fucked up, and that they deserve to be dragged into the light and examined.  Actually they deserve to be dragged behind the barn and shot, but you can't kill a meme that way.  

Unthinking attitudes that hurt and limit us are like malicious ghosts that haunt our community.  What we need to get rid of them is a lot of sunlight, better education and direct critical examination, and eventually they might disappear.  The first step is to openly identify them and point out where the logic flaws are.  Preferably without things degenerating into a personal pissing match.  Let's give it a try.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 1:57:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Holy fuckamoly, people.  The OP has a real and serious point.  It really is like that, in stereotypical images of both female dominance and female submission. 


It's like that predominantly on the internet where the guys are overexposed to porn.  We've discussed this topic many times and the result is nearly always the same.  We tend to agree that people need to get out into real life where this is less prevalent and we counsel those who complain about it to ignore the HNGs in favor of real life.  I can't think of even one thread on this topic where this was not the case.  If you can, please provide links.
 
Furthermore, this was what I said.  No, I have not experienced this except online.  If the OP wishes to avoid it, then she can turn off the computer and get on with life.  It ain't rocket science.

quote:

I'm not talking about local communities and Munches; they tend to have built in reality checks that the online scene lacks. 


Hence the reason for saying "turn off the computer and get a life." 

quote:

But where those expectations do exist, women either go pro, leave in annoyance, or spend a lot of time and energy setting and enforcing their personal boundaries to avoid being treated as things. 


Or they have strong enough personal boundaries to begin with so that this sort of thing just doesn't matter because they are too busy living to allow such an insigificant issue to matter.  There will always be HNGs who objectify women.  You can either rant about it or you can get busy living and changing attitudes at a grassroots level.  Guess which is more likely to be effective.

quote:

I would ask that we give it the respect it deserves. 


Oh, I think it's received exactly the respect it deserves.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:01:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
It was spawned by Focus50's thread on the same topic but with less BS in the OP.


Where the fuck do you see BS in the original post on this thread? 


I meant that Heather's thread had less BS in its OP than Focus50's thread did.  Sorry for the confusion.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:04:13 PM)

quote:

In photos, the only way you can tell the difference between a "Mistress" and a "slave girl", most of the time is by whether she is standing or kneeling. Sometimes, you can't tell, even then.
This is the gist of your problem right here. You insulted every woman on here who posts sexy pics. Some of us are proud of the way we look. And it isn't just men. Look at the women I'm with, I like them slim and sexy and supple as well. Does that make me a bad person, or any less of a woman? I like wearing leather because it turns me on when I do, I like the feel and smell of it, and I happen to get wet when I see myself in the mirror wearing it.

You started this thread insulting most of us, and you now are lashing out and feigning innocence. You know perfectly well why you weren't greeted with open arms, you did it deliberately.

Hanners made a valid observation about your post, and you ignored that fact, and dismissed her point as the result of her of being on her period. Do you really think anybody is going to take you seriously after that?

If you really wanted a debate, perhaps you should have addressed why she felt it wasn't worth bringing up? That might have led to an interesting discussion. <It has here at home.>



OttersSwim -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:08:57 PM)

Yea, see LnT, I didn't see much of what you seem to have read in the OP...just a poorly written diatribe about stuff that seemed all over the map in context, and who she was purportedly speaking about.  It made little overall sense to me and gave the overall impression that she hated women...

I feel like you read a lot of your own feelings in to her words in order to make it make any sense whatsoever.





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