RE: Did anyone else notice .. (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:16:10 PM)

I understood what she was saying in the op and while I might agree with some part of it at some point or place... men seeking women of any position (for lack of another word at the moment) I couldn't agree with anything she said based on things I have read of her writing and where she was coming from.

Many men do see women as a tool to make their tool happy. Many men don't only see women as a tool to make their tool happy, but see an all round picture of a specific woman and treat her accordingly.

However, from reading the op for the last year or so and having read a lot because I couldn't believe the humor or insult found there... I just saw her objectifying men just as she claimed men objectify women.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:33:22 PM)

i could see the point she seemed to be making, but at the same time, like Heather said, she came off insulting quite a few of us. it's like doing any of those things to please a person who happens to be an XY is what makes you a bad person, because you're catering to them and they are bad people. =p

as a submissive female, you deal with quite a lot of this from "progressive" women who see what you're doing as taking all women back 50 years, and you're not. feminism is about choice, yes? and a woman can choose to act upon her inclination to be submissive to her partner. maybe women LIKE wearing high heels, maybe women LIKE having someone appreciate the T&A once in a while. we've had plenty of conversations about feminist perspectives on kink, and they all resolve to the point of "HNGs are HNGs but real people are different."  there is nothing wrong with being sexual, with using your body in a pleasurable way, or to get attention from men -- there REALLY isn't. =p if you use it as a way to climb the ladder at work, okay that's bad -- but what's so wrong with liking your own cleavage and not minding if men like it too? =p

and on top of that, there's no tone of humor to the OP at all; since the post wasn't received the way she liked, she claimed it was supposed to be humorous and lighten the load -- well there is such a thing as "tone" to written word, and there isn't much humor there at all. it reads more like an anti-male, "go sister!" rallying cry.

yes we know, porn is made to cater to male tastes. many dominant women are turned off by the FemDom world because it's the same male-serving porn, just with a little slap'n tickle thrown in. many submissive women, though, are turned off by this attitude that doing things for our partners is "bad" or "weak." the OP is not just addressed to female dominants, because she mentions submissive women, too. yeah, in my relationships i happen to serve a man. =p i'm (mostly) heterosexual, so i'm attracted to them. i'm also submissive, so i like to serve them. there really isn't anything wrong with that.

if you meet people who address you like you're a fembot from porn city, then dismiss them. don't give them the time of day, and move on. that's the adult way to deal with it.



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
This is the gist of your problem right here. You insulted every woman on here who posts sexy pics. Some of us are proud of the way we look.


Ahh.  That's something I actually didn't get from the post.  The OP was specifically referring to "expectations and requirements", eg, the most common stereotypes of what a dominant woman should act like and look like.  Not to choices that we personally make for ourselves based on what makes us feel empowered.   If you posted your sexy picture because it makes you feel proud, and not in response to those stereotypical expectations and requirements, then the OP isn't actually talking about you at all.

Do you honestly think that a) what she said about dehumanizing expectations and entitled judgment of dominant women by appearance wasn't spot-on, and that b) it's not a problem?

I'll agree that the rest of what she said was handled poorly, but the OP was right on target, IMO. 



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 2:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
Do you honestly think that a) what she said about dehumanizing expectations and entitled judgment of dominant women by appearance wasn't spot-on,
quote:



Actually, I think what she said about appearance in general was crap.  To wit, this line:
quote:

Look like an Auschwitz victim, by weight.


This is a blatant attack on thin women by a woman who is apparently jealous of thin privilege.  It completely discounts the BBW fetishists who come through here on a regular basis.  It also discounts women who are voluptuous and have no shortage of people who admire them for their minds as well as their bodies.

This one is just ridiculous:
quote:

Wear bright red lipstick.


I can't say I've ever seen anyone demand a particular shade of lipstick.  Again, if someone can demonstrate otherwise, I want quotes.
 
What about this one?

quote:

In photos, the only way you can tell the difference between a "Mistress" and a "slave girl", most of the time is by whether she is standing or kneeling. Sometimes, you can't tell, even then.


As if there is something inherently dominant or submissive about the pose in a photo...how many times have we chewed out men who make this type of statement?  Are you saying that it's ok for a woman to say it, but not a man?  How bigotted is that?

quote:

and that b) it's not a problem?


It's not a problem that needs to be rehashed, yet again, with the level of both misandry and misogyny demonstrated by the OP's attitude.

quote:

I'll agree that the rest of what she said was handled poorly, but the OP was right on target, IMO. 


Clearly she wasn't since the vast majority of responses directly contradict her assertions.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:05:31 PM)

quote:

a) what she said about dehumanizing expectations and entitled judgment of dominant women by appearance wasn't spot-on
It pretty much is accurate. however, as Lilly pointed out, she didn't limit her discussion to dominants, she included us all. She basically said it was wrong to portray yourself in the manner that men like to see women. Well I like to portray my self that way, I like to dress slutty because I am slutty. I do it to please myself, and because I want to attract the attention of the sort of women who like sassy little sluts. I'm vain, I like hearing what a hot little piece of ass I am, and I don't appreciate some self-appointed arbitrator of right and wrong telling me I shouldn't be doing it.

quote:

b) it's not a problem?
That depends on one's point of view. Yes the objectification of women as a whole is an important issue, for society. But the OP's attitude that anybody who doesn't behave or dress in a manner consistent with her views is somehow part of the problem, is no different. In decrying the objectification and sexualization of women by the male-dominated culture, she is doing exactly the same thing, she is objectifying me and attempting to de-sexualize me. The HNGs say I should dress and behave in one manner, and the OP says I should do so in another. What happened to my choice here? Where does she get off telling me that what I do is wrong. I dress and act like a slutty little lezbo fucktoy, because I am a slutty little lezbo fucktoy. I do it not to meet the expectations of anybody but myself, and the women I want to appeal to. As an ardent feminist, I insist on my right to do so, it's my body, I will attire, or not, it in any manner I chose, and will flaunt it whenever and wherever I want to. I shouldn't have to conform to society's ideas of feminine beauty, but equally, I should be free to do so if I choose.

That's why I took offense at the OP's remarks.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:09:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
In decrying the objectification and sexualization of women by the male-dominated culture, she is doing exactly the same thing, she is objectifying me and attempting to de-sexualize me.


Stuff like this is what earns you the "brilliant" tag.  Just sayin.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:10:53 PM)

[ignoring the firestorm, other than to say to LNT that yes, I do think this is complete and utter bullcrap of the highest order.]

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

.. that, in the majority, the same expectations and requirements exist for all females, whether subs, slaves, switches, Dommes, or, etc?

'All females'? I am a woman (or a 'female' if you prefer, but a recent UK sitcom has really, really put me off that word). None of this shit gets pushed on me. All I can conclude from this is that you hang around with crappier people than I do. Let's take your complaints one by one:

quote:


Dress in leather.

I own one leather waistcoat thing and one faux-leather skirt. I can count the number of times I've topped in those items of clothing on my fingers. Most of the time it's skinny jeans and a top that doesn't restrict my movement (and socks, always socks; I am a big believer that nobody should have cold feet, not ever. Sometimes they're knee high, but that's cuz I like wearing knee high socks.) Nobody has ever made me feel anything less than an absolute goddess of sex in that get-up.

quote:


Wear pointy-toed shoes

I have small feet. They look hilariously odd in pointy shoes. I therefore do not wear pointy shoes. Trainers or doc martens or comfy heels. I do have one pair of uber-high boots, but I don't think anyone's ever 'expected' or 'required' me to wear them.

quote:


Offer me your ass.

I don't do 'offering'. On the very (very) rare occasions when anyone goes near my arse I'm not offering anything, I'm fucking demanding it. But nobody has ever 'expected' or 'required' anything arse-related from me. (And I'm fucking proud of my behind. It's pretty fucking good. Ask CreepyStalker. So it's not that people don't want it.)

quote:


Beguile me with your cunt and tits

Generally speaking, if I'm not having sex in the near future then my clothing stays on. Nobody has ever, ever 'required' or 'expected' to see my cunt or tits. And however much of myself I expose it's because that's what I want; it's driven by me.

quote:


Spend my money, but, only on things that please me.

Nope, never been a problem. I have mysteriously avoided all these 'too angry to pay for a coffee' types. Couldn't say why.

quote:


If you want something from me, perform to my expectations first.

I don't even know what you think that means, to be honest. But my interactions with people tend to be pretty mutual - we're getting our kicks out of the same activities at the same times. Not really quid pro quo.

quote:


Look like an Auschwitz victim, by weight.

Leaving aside your dubious usage of a holocaust analogy in a whine on a sex site, this is laughable and ridiculous. I am not thin. I am in demand. Many of my friends and partners are also not thin. You'd better believe they are in demand. Ergo women in BDSM do not have to be thin to be in demand. People who blame their weight for their unattractiveness are missing the point.

quote:


Wear bright red lipstick.

I've got a fetish listed on fetlife called 'not wearing lipstick-too busy kissing people'. I hate how lipstick smudges and gets everywhere when I use my mouth for fun things. I also have a really full mouth; in brightly coloured lipstick I look like a clown. As a result, I rarely wear lipstick. Nobody has ever expected or required me to wear any makeup at all, actually.

quote:


Keep yourself impeccably groomed at all times.

Nobody who has ever seen my hair could ever call me impeccably groomed. My hair does not do 'impeccably groomed', it does 'wild insane mess'. This has never been a problem. (See also the above point about mostly playing in jeans. And socks. Can one be impeccably groomed in socked feet? I doubt it.)


quote:


Don't expect me to pay for it.

I don't expect my partners to pay for it, quite frankly, and it's weird that you're listing this as an unreasonable expectation.

quote:


Never be comfortable.

This is just an overdramatic fail. Seriously? You couldn't say this with a straight face. Or at least I couldn't, but then I have a reasonably grip on shared reality.

quote:


Never be weak.

I wouldn't know about this one, because I don't really do 'weak'. I do tired, grumpy, hungry, scared, miserable. All of those things. None of them make me weak, I don't think.

quote:


Never be human.

Again on the 'so ridiculous I couldn't say this out loud' riff.

quote:


Try not to speak.

I am good with conversation. I am also occasionally good with dirty talk, when the mood strikes. And with snapped orders and matter-of-fact cruel statements and taunts and promises and threats and I have never, ever, ever been expected or required to stop doing any of those things.

quote:


In photos, the only way you can tell the difference between a "Mistress" and a "slave girl", most of the time is by whether she is standing or kneeling. Sometimes, you can't tell, even then.

The idea that a d-type couldn't kneel for a photo or an s-type couldn't stand for a photo is retarded. You want to know why you can't tell the difference in a photo? Because dominance and submission are not visual things. And the fact that you think they are shows that you buy into exactly the same overly visual stereotypes that you're bitching about. They look the same because to a camera they are the same - just women, standing or kneeling or doing the fucking hula in the nude (hands up everyone who saw that fetlife photo!)

quote:


And, apparently, both are 24/7 jobs of enforced activity, to heighten the male sense and drain the male libido.

Again with the ridiculous over drama. Being me is a 24/7 job, and it's being me that heightens the senses and drains the libidos (if we must use the helladramatic terms) of whoever I'm with, male or female. Me? I don't have to do anything extra. I'm sorry that you find whatever extra you have to do so tiring, but not everyone's like that.




So, in conclusion:

No. I haven't noticed all this crap you've been moaning about. Glad to be able to answer your question.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
In decrying the objectification and sexualization of women by the male-dominated culture, she is doing exactly the same thing, she is objectifying me and attempting to de-sexualize me.


Stuff like this is what earns you the "brilliant" tag.  Just sayin.


I concur.



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:23:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
She basically said it was wrong to portray yourself in the manner that men like to see women. Well I like to portray my self that way, I like to dress slutty because I am slutty. I do it to please myself, and because I want to attract the attention of the sort of women who like sassy little sluts. I'm vain, I like hearing what a hot little piece of ass I am, and I don't appreciate some self-appointed arbitrator of right and wrong telling me I shouldn't be doing it.


Total confusion here.  Could you show me in the op where it said that it was wrong for women to wear anything they wanted to, if it was their own choice?  The problem is with the stereotype that we must all dress and package ourselves for the entitled male gaze.  The issue is not the choices women make for themselves.

quote:

Yes the objectification of women as a whole is an important issue, for society. But the OP's attitude that anybody who doesn't behave or dress in a manner consistent with her views is somehow part of the problem, is no different. In decrying the objectification and sexualization of women by the male-dominated culture, she is doing exactly the same thing, she is objectifying me and attempting to de-sexualize me.


Again, really confused.  I just don't see anyone doing that, and I am unsure where you got to that point from what was actually said in the OP about expectations and requirements.  She's not saying, "don't dress like a slut" so much as "there is an expectation that we must all dress like sluts whether we personally choose to or not." 

Even though I am (technically) heterosexual, I have a HUGE problem with the predominant cultural expectation that we must all be heterosexual.  When I complain that this is a bad thing, I am not saying "Heterosexuality is bad!  Don't be heterosexual!"  I'm saying that trying to force people into stereotypes whether they fit them or not is a bad thing.  I read the OP similarly.  Women who enjoy being visually sexual because it makes them feel good or empowered or sexy or whatever are cool.  But the stereotype isn't cool, and neither is the sense of entitlement or expectation that all women must be packaged prettily for male gaze. 



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:29:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
In decrying the objectification and sexualization of women by the male-dominated culture, she is doing exactly the same thing, she is objectifying me and attempting to de-sexualize me.


Stuff like this is what earns you the "brilliant" tag.  Just sayin.


I concur.



Definately agree



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:31:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
No. I haven't noticed all this crap you've been moaning about. Glad to be able to answer your question.


I'm honestly glad you haven't.  But I have.  Much more so in the online world and in pro work than in the actual BDSM community, but I've run into it there as well.  It's certainly possible to do a lot of ignoring and avoiding people who bring unrealistic or dehumanizing expectations to their interactions with you, but they do exist and they are a pain in the ass.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:37:06 PM)

Well, I don't know what to say LNT, except that you and I came away from the OP with vastly different interpretations of what was said and implied by it. My view comes from the way she worded things, and the things she chose to highlight as undesirable. As well, I am taking into account the way she responded to the first few replies. She clearly does see these things as bad, she equates them with being fake as far as being a Dominant woman goes.

To Syl.
quote:

Probably, you're just some pointy-toed shoe wearing, leather clad "domme" who feels insulted by a post which, while in reality highlighting how allegedly submissive males tend to be too demanding and to objectify women, seems to you to highlight what a fake ass, non-dominant, scared little woman you are.


To Hanners
quote:

the same little few trollopy whores, masquerading as people who are dominant


Now, you tell me what about those two statements says anything but what I saw as her basic point?



BitaTruble -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:41:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter
I do not think humorous observations are bad places.


Humor is great. What you wrote, however, was not humor by any stretch of the imagination. You can say damn near anything you like if you couch it in humor.

The Magical Cunt

The above is a humorous observation. See the difference in both presentation and reception?

You could try getting a medial epicondylectomy to expose that there funny bone.

As far as the actual OP -This line bothers me. "In photos, the only way you can tell the difference between a "Mistress" and a "slave girl", most of the time is by whether she is standing or kneeling. Sometimes, you can't tell, even then."

In essence you are blaming women for their choices and styles of dress so as to perpetuate the sterotypes which you claim to have observed.

You're just going to have to get over it. Empowered women dress the way they desire, NOT the way you would have them present themselves just because you make some sort of different choice. As far as your post being 'pro female', I'm afraid because of your own narrow vision I'm just not buying it.

Pot, kettle, black baby



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:41:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
No. I haven't noticed all this crap you've been moaning about. Glad to be able to answer your question.


I'm honestly glad you haven't.  But I have.  Much more so in the online world and in pro work than in the actual BDSM community, but I've run into it there as well.  It's certainly possible to do a lot of ignoring and avoiding people who bring unrealistic or dehumanizing expectations to their interactions with you, but they do exist and they are a pain in the ass.



Okay but this is just a round about way of saying...men are considered superior; females are sexualized.

This has been going on for how long?

Although I think there is much to explore with the basic ideas of why that is, I must reiterate, the OP did not push a question out there to help us do that.

As to why that is? It is essential to the male ego. Females give birth. Males cannot do without us. They must denigrate us b/c they need us so badly.

It's that same old same old law of supply and demand that numerous men come on here and complain about.

BTW: I am not saying it's right, just saying it's the way it is and has been for so many millennium.

Complaining seems futile. Females are eroticized and sexualized. Okaysies. Um, next !!





VaguelyCurious -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 3:47:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

I'm honestly glad you haven't.  But I have.  Much more so in the online world and in pro work than in the actual BDSM community, but I've run into it there as well.  It's certainly possible to do a lot of ignoring and avoiding people who bring unrealistic or dehumanizing expectations to their interactions with you, but they do exist and they are a pain in the ass.

Really? You've run into men whose expectations are that you 'never be weak', 'never be comfortable' and 'try not to speak'? Because if you can say that with a straight face then I won't discount your experience, but I'd certainly be surprised.



Hisprettybaby -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 4:25:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marisol

Oh, boy. You want me to answer your question? No, I do not notice this so much.

I think you're stereotyping. I think more than a few here wish to take those "pointy toed shoes" and shove them up your ass.


You may be young, but you're very right to the point and I like your style! [;)]

~Hisprettybaby~



DeviantlyD -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 5:28:12 PM)

To the OP: No, I've never noticed that in my personal experiences.
However, I did notice you have more than one profile. :)
http://www.collarme.com/personals/v/1360220/details.htm


quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

[8|]

Doughnut holes, anyone?


You know doughnut holes are Timbits....right? *grin*


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

.... some vegetarians wear leather shoes ...


Vegetarians can wear leather. It's in the rule book. ;) Vegans...definitely no.



Madame4a -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 5:52:37 PM)

Wow... you are one angry one...

not sure where to start, but clearly you've got one hell of a chip on your shoulder.. and you definitely sound like a woman who hates women... Camille Paglia.. where are you?

or are you just channeling her?



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 5:54:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Really? You've run into men whose expectations are that you 'never be weak', 'never be comfortable' and 'try not to speak'? Because if you can say that with a straight face then I won't discount your experience, but I'd certainly be surprised.


Professionally, yes.  Their expectation was that I stay in the dungeon 24/7, not have a life outside of it (eg, not speak to them outside of session space or be a part of their everyday lives), wear uncomfortable clothes at all times, and stick strictly to their fantasy script and not actually initiate a real conversation.

Is this really surprising? 



LadyNTrainer -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (7/30/2011 7:03:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
Now, you tell me what about those two statements says anything but what I saw as her basic point?


I didn't actually do more than skim beyond the original post, as it degenerated into personal name calling.  But yes, I see your point.  I still don't see it in the OP. 



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