RE: Did anyone else notice ..

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LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 4:15:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Which is the major difference right there. In the groups you are talking about, DC, as I said, it's specifically about the imbalance of power. That's just not the same thing when we're talking about random strangers on the internet. If some wanker sends Me an email, they don't have power over Me. Even CM agrees with Me by providing Me those nice block, hide, delete, and report as spam buttons. However, I still see that as teaching people how to treat us. Even though it's probably a waste most of the time, I will send an email back first to say why what they are doing isn't acceptable. Whether they didn't respect My wishes about My criteria in My profile, what they said was rude, or whatever the reason is that I'm blocking them in the first place. Then, I block them to show them I'm not willing to tolerate it. If they learn from that experience, I really have taught them how I expect to be treated. Exactly! This is how I respond to it as well. In general I try to let people know what behaviour they have hat turned me off. I pick my moment and use a constructive tone (unless they are total jerks).

LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 4:25:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze I don't think the comment was completely beside the point, we run into people and we often have no influence on how they behave towards us. For example, dealing with a lot of different cultures, some of the people I encounter have a different perception on a woman's role in society. Due to work I can't "cut them out of my life", I also can't undo the background they grew up with. The same goes if I encounter some chauvinist, of course I can make it clear that I won't tolerate certain behaviour, but the fact remains that I have to deal with it, if I want to or not - whereas a guy hardly ever will encounter it. You can cut people out of your personal life, but you can't professionally only deal with people you want to deal with, the economy simply isn't that good. A lot of times you just have to deal with people you don't want to deal with, when it comes to buying a car, I usually opt out and let my other half do it, because a guy trying to sell me a car because it "looks cool or has a nice colour" or some other such nonsense tests my patience a bit much, sure I can then go and search for another garage, but it does cost time and I hate dealing with idiots. Much like you, I deal with people of different cultures, and more often than not, on their turf, that is in their country. When I'm in the Middle East, I'm dressed as western business woman while the women I deal with (when I deal with the women of course) are in burqas. I have to adapt to their culture, but I will not however lower myself because I'm a woman. And to be honest, I get nothing but respect while I'm there. And even in other countries which are just macho, like in South America, I still manage to get the meetings with the head honchos. You don't have to cut them out of your life. You just have to set your boundaries. It's all about being assertive. Here's a good resource similar to one I discovered about 10 years ago: quote: Differences Between Passive, Aggressive, and Assertive Behavior. Passive Behavior (The Passive Person) -- Aggressive Behavior (The Aggressive Person) -- Assertive Behavior (The Assertive Person). Passive Behavior: Is afraid to speak up Aggressive Behavior: Interrupts and 'talks over' others Assertive Behavior: Speaks openly Passive Behavior: Speaks softly Aggressive Behavior: Speaks loudly Assertive Behavior: Uses a conversational tone Passive Behavior: Avoids looking at people Aggressive Behavior: Glares and stares at others Assertive Behavior: Makes good eye contact Passive Behavior: Shows little or no expression Aggressive Behavior: Intimidates others with expressions Assertive Behavior: Shows expressions that match the message Passive Behavior: Slouches and withdraws Aggressive Behavior: Stands rigidly, crosses arms, invades others' personal space Assertive Behavior: Relaxes and adopts an open posture and expressions Passive Behavior: Isolates self from groups Aggressive Behavior: Controls groups Assertive Behavior: Participates in groups Passive Behavior: Agrees with others, despite feelings Aggressive Behavior: Only considers own feelings, and/or demands of others Assertive Behavior: Speaks to the point Passive Behavior: Values self less than others Aggressive Behavior: Values self more than others Assertive Behavior: Values self equal to others Passive Behavior: Hurts self to avoid hurting others Aggressive Behavior: Hurts others to avoid being hurt Assertive Behavior: Tries to hurt no one (including self) Passive Behavior: Does not reach goals and may not know goals Aggressive Behavior: Reaches goals but hurts others in the process Assertive Behavior: Usually reaches goals without alienating others Passive Behavior: You're okay, I'm not Aggressive Behavior: I'm okay, you're not Assertive Behavior: I'm okay, you're okay I can guarantee you that an assertive attitude, disposition and behaviour will get you to that place you want to be.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 4:32:12 PM)
quote: I've never claimed women are treated equally in the workforce. As someone who has worked in male dominated fields my entire life, I know how untrue that is. And not all men are treated equal. Some are discriminated against because of skin colour, age, height, hair density, education level, marital status. Inequality is everywhere. We have lost when we focus on our disadvantages rather than our advantages. I can tell you that sometimes when I show up with my bright cheery smile and smart looking business suit, I am granted much more of an arena than my male counterparts to express my ideas and point of view, because I exude assertive confidence. They know that when I talk, I have something worth to contribute, so they listen and consider.

leadership527 -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 8:44:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep ...and i hate pointy toed stilettoes. OH THANK THE LORD. Man, here I am waiting patiently for that god-awful pointy toe craze to run it's course. I'd begun to despair that any women in the world liked round toes... well... other than Carol of course who likes what I like :) That's it though. If she dies I'm gonna com stake out the starbucks nearest you and see about an abduction. Based upon recent threads, that is how it's done, right?

SweetDommes -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 8:48:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Your analogies don't particularly hold up well, to be honest. The statement, as I understand it, is that we teach people how to treat us individually (not as an entire group). Meaning that just because X person treats Y person in one way doesn't mean that is how they should treat Z person. We aren't talking about predjudices, or genocide, or any other such thing - nor are we talking about criminal behavior ... we are talking about the general, law-abiding population. Not rapists, not slave owners, not the 3rd Reich ... modern day, mostly law-abiding citizens and how they interact with individuals as individuals. And before you start going on about specific people who can't be taught - go back to the posts about cutting people out of lives ... if someone continually disrespects me, I'm done with them - I minimize all required contact and move along, and others have made similar statements. I don't think the comment was completely beside the point, we run into people and we often have no influence on how they behave towards us. For example, dealing with a lot of different cultures, some of the people I encounter have a different perception on a woman's role in society. Due to work I can't "cut them out of my life", I also can't undo the background they grew up with. The same goes if I encounter some chauvinist, of course I can make it clear that I won't tolerate certain behaviour, but the fact remains that I have to deal with it, if I want to or not - whereas a guy hardly ever will encounter it. You can cut people out of your personal life, but you can't professionally only deal with people you want to deal with, the economy simply isn't that good. A lot of times you just have to deal with people you don't want to deal with, when it comes to buying a car, I usually opt out and let my other half do it, because a guy trying to sell me a car because it "looks cool or has a nice colour" or some other such nonsense tests my patience a bit much, sure I can then go and search for another garage, but it does cost time and I hate dealing with idiots. There are differences in how women are treated, public transportation - doesn't happen very often that a guy gets his butt felt, happens to women all the time, of course you can say something and stop it, but the point is, you have to, guys don't have to. Dark alleys, most guys don't worry about rape, it's something that is on a woman's mind... Hot summer days and walking past a building side, how many guys get wolf whistles and comments? Happens to women frequently... I dare say none of us want that kind of interaction but it's just very much part of life and we don't have any influence on how they behave, sure we could go up and tell them that it's sexist behaviour, but seriously, who has the time for that? I actually specifically stated that I minimize required contact. I was thinking about my job working at a prison. I can't refuse to see the guys when they are sick or injured ... but I can refuse to deal with them while they are actively being rude; I don't have to chit-chat with them; I don't have to allow them into 'my space' (meaning the clinic) unless they need to be there. I'm aware that you can't cut every single person who is a problem out of your life ... but you can minimize contact, as well as doing things to make them aware that you find their behavior unacceptable - it doesn't work for all of them, but I've found that most of the offenders I work with will eventually get a clue and at least fake appropriate behavior.

BeanTwiceOver -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/10/2011 11:43:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Lady A is most correct, we teach people how we want to be treated. That is the single biggest bit of bullshit I have ever read on these boards. Does a woman "teach" her rapist to abuse her? THANK YOU so goddamn much for calling this out. I don't see anything "empowering" about this at all; it's straight-up bullshit victim-blaming. quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt And yes, if you constantly get assaulted, you need to change your behavior. I've been repeatedly assaulted because I am androgynous and frequently read as gay. In one instance, I did absolutely nothing but make eye contact with a guy, and he (flanked by his buddies) walked up to me and hit me with a low uppercut in the ribs. Precisely what behaviour would you propose I change in order to prevent this from happening again? Would you suggest I avoid making eye contact with anyone? Because it seems to me that people usually suggest the opposite when they are telling you how to act so that you don't get assaulted. Tell me, when are we actually going to hold abusive bullies and predators responsible for their behaviour?

SuzeCheri -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/11/2011 4:04:55 AM)
quote: Precisely what behaviour would you propose I change in order to prevent this from happening again? Would you suggest I avoid making eye contact with anyone? Because it seems to me that people usually suggest the opposite when they are telling you how to act so that you don't get assaulted. I guess he's never heard of Llap Goch. Lap what? Llap Goch. it's a secret Welsh art of self defence. I've never heard of it before. Well of course not, I said it was a secret. Oh, yeah. [:)] So what's so special about it, Suze? It's an ancient Welsh art based on a brilliantly simple idea, which is a secret. The best form of defence is attack and the most vital element of attack is surprise. Therefore, the best way to protect yourself against any assailant is to attack him before he attacks you... Or better... before the thought of doing so has even occurred to him!!! So you may be able to render your assailant unconscious before he is even aware of your very existence! Wow, I'm impressed, is there some way I could learn more? I'm glad you asked that, Cheri, because there just happens to be a web site. Just click this link for more information: http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

DeviantlyD -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/11/2011 4:12:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri quote: Precisely what behaviour would you propose I change in order to prevent this from happening again? Would you suggest I avoid making eye contact with anyone? Because it seems to me that people usually suggest the opposite when they are telling you how to act so that you don't get assaulted. I guess he's never heard of Llap Goch. Lap what? Llap Goch. it's a secret Welsh art of self defence. I've never heard of it before. Well of course not, I said it was a secret. Oh, yeah. [:)] So what's so special about it, Suze? It's an ancient Welsh art based on a brilliantly simple idea, which is a secret. The best form of defence is attack and the most vital element of attack is surprise. Therefore, the best way to protect yourself against any assailant is to attack him before he attacks you... Or better... before the thought of doing so has even occurred to him!!! So you may be able to render your assailant unconscious before he is even aware of your very existence! Wow, I'm impressed, is there some way I could learn more? I'm glad you asked that, Cheri, because there just happens to be a web site. Just click this link for more information: http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/ It can't be defense if the purpose is to act on the offense. (i.e., attack first)

SuzeCheri -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/11/2011 4:31:03 AM)
[sm=Groaner.gif] Yes [sm=Groaner.gif] indeed.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/11/2011 6:01:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I can guarantee you that an assertive attitude, disposition and behaviour will get you to that place you want to be. That's all very nice, only with the very minor problem that I've done a bunch of articles for an international finance magazine in how to deal with other cultures and that my work is pretty much international, however certain Middle East countries do not accept that they have to work with women, cultural difference. I recall 4 years ago a client approached us, all went fine, boss gave them the names of the people who'd be working on the project, not a problem, they assumed I was a guy because he only gave Dr. and my last name, when we had to send them scans of the passport, they twigged that I was a woman and we got a reply along the lines "Thanks for the present but we want a man to work with us" - I am sure a change of my attitude and your little theory would have worked like a charm - NOT! On the other hand, some Mid Eastern countries are different and when the person you are dealing with has been to Western countries it is a different experience, however even then I make sure I dress on the very conservative side of business wear. Unlike you, I haven't found South America to be "super macho" in business, Argentina is one of my fave countries regarding business. Beautiful manners. A few simple examples, my bank seems to have still very shitty software, letters to me are usually addressed as "Dear Sir" - my first name is not particularly male, actually very female, the fact that there is Dr in front of it, the software automatically makes it a Sir, as apparently women aren't capable of academic achievements... Calls with "Can I speak to Dr....." I tell them sure they can, and they ask me if I'm the wife (at home) or the secretary (at work) and I usually go "You are speaking to HER!" Nothing dramatic, just minor annoyances that show quite clearly that this whole "Oh it's just your attitude and how you present yourself" lecturing is plain and simple BS. Any form you fill out, you have Mrs or Ms - you get that for guys anywhere? I don't know why women like to pretend that they are always treated equally and it's just them and the others are at fault if they do notice that it doesn't happen, does it make you feel stronger? One upmanship? I rather have it changed, not because I can't deal with it or I a too weak or not assertive enough to make my way, I'm doing fine, I just prefer to not ignore what is blatantly obvious to appear super in control. There is no reason why a woman should have to jump through more hurdles than a guy.

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