RE: Did anyone else notice ..

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LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:05:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I wasn't saying there wasn't sexism. What I was saying is that we treat people how to teach us. My work environment is about 95% male. I can assure you that I'm respected for my work ethic, personality and competency. I've commanded their respect. I work a lot with guys, but I found that being respected for the same things means often you have to work harder if you're female. There have been times where I really wanted to throttle somebody who thought they can get away with rubbish or pull the wool over my eyes and I wouldn't notice on account of being female. And of course you will always have rumors if you're halfway attractive, but those rumors don't always just come from guys. I'm sorry that you have to go through that. I guess I feel fortunate that while it's not always easy to be a powerful woman in a man's world, the men who work close to me always have my back, and my negative experiences are rare, small and contained.

LadyPact -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:14:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus LOL!! LP and I crossed posts, I just read your "flipping mess" comment! Speaking as a person who has DMd at events large and small...most of the kind of thing we are talking about here just doesnt get reported. Honestly, it's laughed off more than anything, as long as the other party doesn't try to lay hands on someone. Someone super pesky might get mentioned to the party organizer, but unless obvious rules are broken, it's looked on as a "you don't ask, you don't get". SOMEONE might want to play with the dude asking anyone and everyone to spank him! It's a matter of what we pay attention to, I guess. I used to go into every event as if I were a DM. I was also one of those go-to people, so I was on the inside of "please help me get rid of this guy" more often than I would like. It's been a long time since anyone approached ME in a less than desirable manner, but that's ME. I still see it happening, and cruise on around the problem areas. Not that I don't think of you fondly, Hib. It's just that I also happen to pay attention. [;)] What we're talking about now is various things that bother some people and others they don't. Not everybody is as good at social cues, either. One person's "can you get rid or this guy" or "he's staring" is another person's 'the guy is trying to fit in' or 'he's looking because he's too shy to walk up' or maybe even 'just the wallflower type'. Go back to that thread I wrote a couple of weeks ago about how quick some folks really are to throw the predator or the creepy label around and I think some of that applies. I don't mind the guy who walks up and asks to play. Isn't that what he came to the play party for? I have no objection to somebody asking Me if I'd like to see their marks that they got from the scene they've had. I don't consider any of that type of thing to be objectifying at all. Maybe some are just more sensitive in such areas than I am.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:25:43 PM)
I learned a long time ago that in all relationships, work or otherwise, you get the behavior you tolerate. In terms of romantic relationships, the OP's list has little relevance to me, b/c I don't tolerate being treated like a blow up doll. The men I know have zero problems seeing me as a human being with a great brain and many useful talents, some of which just so happen to be sexy as hell. If any female is having issues getting the kind of respect she thinks she deserves, I strongly suggest she look to her own behavior. Lady A is most correct, we teach people how we want to be treated. If you don't like it, change the lesson plan.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:34:37 PM)
Actually I just realized I typed "we treat people how to teach us". Seems I had a "moment" :-\| Thanks for typing it right!

dcnovice -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:37:37 PM)
quote: Lady A is most correct, we teach people how we want to be treated. That is the single biggest bit of bullshit I have ever read on these boards. Does a woman "teach" her rapist to abuse her?

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:47:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Lady A is most correct, we teach people how we want to be treated. That is the single biggest bit of bullshit I have ever read on these boards. Does a woman "teach" her rapist to abuse her? Who pissed in your ice cream? I'd love to know how you figure the issue of rape enters into this topic. How's this? For the most part, we teach people how we want to be treated, except when we are being assaulted by a violent criminal. And even then how you behave very often will determine if you survive. And before you spout some more bull shit, no, I don't think it means anyone who gets assaulted "asked for it." Behavior is an action, it causes reactions. If you don't like the behavior you get, that is, how people react to you, than change your actions. And yes, if you constantly get assaulted, you need to change your behavior. Now go get a fresh bowl of ice cream and let the grown ups play.

cloudboy -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 7:55:03 PM)
That hat on your avatar looks ridiculous.

dcnovice -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 8:15:54 PM)
No one pissed in my ice cream. It was delicious, thanks. I simply read something that struck me as nonsensical, I and called it as I saw it. That seems to have irked you. The connection with rape stems from the fact that there's a long history of blaming the victim for--take your pick--dressing provocatively, walking in the wrong place alone, leading someone on etc. Your "We teach..." rubric comes perilously close to saying that the raper survivor brought the attack on herself. The vapidity of "We teach" is also clear in a historical context. Did enslaved Africans teach whites how to oppress them. Would different "behavior" on the part of European Jews have staved off the Holocaust? As for running away from the "grown-ups" (nice bit of condescension there, btw), no dice. The thread is mine as much as it is yours, and I'll comment as I see fit.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 8:25:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Lady A is most correct, we teach people how we want to be treated. That is the single biggest bit of bullshit I have ever read on these boards. Does a woman "teach" her rapist to abuse her? Who pissed in your ice cream? I'd love to know how you figure the issue of rape enters into this topic. How's this? For the most part, we teach people how we want to be treated, except when we are being assaulted by a violent criminal. And even then how you behave very often will determine if you survive. And before you spout some more bull shit, no, I don't think it means anyone who gets assaulted "asked for it." Behavior is an action, it causes reactions. If you don't like the behavior you get, that is, how people react to you, than change your actions. And yes, if you constantly get assaulted, you need to change your behavior. Now go get a fresh bowl of ice cream and let the grown ups play. Honestly, to take a few words of inspiring wisdom targeted at helping women empower themselves and twist them so viciously. Shame. I agree with you that how we react to aggressive behaviour will determine how we get ourselves out of it. That said, I have been attacked rather violently out of the blue, and believe me that if I wasn't for my assertiveness, I might be not be here to tell the story. That said, the discussion was not meant to take this turn. I have learned that being considerate and assertive pretty much gets me the respect I deserve, with men and women, just about anywhere in the world.

SweetDommes -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 8:59:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice No one pissed in my ice cream. It was delicious, thanks. I simply read something that struck me as nonsensical, I and called it as I saw it. That seems to have irked you. The connection with rape stems from the fact that there's a long history of blaming the victim for--take your pick--dressing provocatively, walking in the wrong place alone, leading someone on etc. Your "We teach..." rubric comes perilously close to saying that the raper survivor brought the attack on herself. The vapidity of "We teach" is also clear in a historical context. Did enslaved Africans teach whites how to oppress them. Would different "behavior" on the part of European Jews have staved off the Holocaust? As for running away from the "grown-ups" (nice bit of condescension there, btw), no dice. The thread is mine as much as it is yours, and I'll comment as I see fit. Your analogies don't particularly hold up well, to be honest. The statement, as I understand it, is that we teach people how to treat us individually (not as an entire group). Meaning that just because X person treats Y person in one way doesn't mean that is how they should treat Z person. We aren't talking about predjudices, or genocide, or any other such thing - nor are we talking about criminal behavior ... we are talking about the general, law-abiding population. Not rapists, not slave owners, not the 3rd Reich ... modern day, mostly law-abiding citizens and how they interact with individuals as individuals. And before you start going on about specific people who can't be taught - go back to the posts about cutting people out of lives ... if someone continually disrespects me, I'm done with them - I minimize all required contact and move along, and others have made similar statements.

LadyPact -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/1/2011 11:49:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice No one pissed in my ice cream. It was delicious, thanks. I simply read something that struck me as nonsensical, I and called it as I saw it. That seems to have irked you. The connection with rape stems from the fact that there's a long history of blaming the victim for--take your pick--dressing provocatively, walking in the wrong place alone, leading someone on etc. Your "We teach..." rubric comes perilously close to saying that the raper survivor brought the attack on herself. The vapidity of "We teach" is also clear in a historical context. Did enslaved Africans teach whites how to oppress them. Would different "behavior" on the part of European Jews have staved off the Holocaust? As for running away from the "grown-ups" (nice bit of condescension there, btw), no dice. The thread is mine as much as it is yours, and I'll comment as I see fit. I don't think your examples hold for the angle of the discussion. In My point of view, most of the above is about groups or categorizes where one section of the population had more power than the other. Even in your example of rapist and victim, we're still looking at a situation that is imbalance of power. The OP did something of a rather poor job in her original to express what she intended the thread to be about. Here's one of her statements from page two: quote: "It was about how most men, regardless of what they say they are, still seek to oppress women, and is, therefore, in favor of women, not against them." Later, on page four, she finally gets specific: quote: "It was about humorously expressing an observation that, regardless of whether they claim to be dominant or submissive, almost all the men on this site ask for exactly the same things out of a woman, when it comes to how to dress, and, what counts as either serving or being served. Which is easily observable by reading their emails, or, their profiles." Which is the major difference right there. In the groups you are talking about, DC, as I said, it's specifically about the imbalance of power. That's just not the same thing when we're talking about random strangers on the internet. If some wanker sends Me an email, they don't have power over Me. Even CM agrees with Me by providing Me those nice block, hide, delete, and report as spam buttons. However, I still see that as teaching people how to treat us. Even though it's probably a waste most of the time, I will send an email back first to say why what they are doing isn't acceptable. Whether they didn't respect My wishes about My criteria in My profile, what they said was rude, or whatever the reason is that I'm blocking them in the first place. Then, I block them to show them I'm not willing to tolerate it. If they learn from that experience, I really have taught them how I expect to be treated.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 3:26:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetDommes Your analogies don't particularly hold up well, to be honest. The statement, as I understand it, is that we teach people how to treat us individually (not as an entire group). Meaning that just because X person treats Y person in one way doesn't mean that is how they should treat Z person. We aren't talking about predjudices, or genocide, or any other such thing - nor are we talking about criminal behavior ... we are talking about the general, law-abiding population. Not rapists, not slave owners, not the 3rd Reich ... modern day, mostly law-abiding citizens and how they interact with individuals as individuals. And before you start going on about specific people who can't be taught - go back to the posts about cutting people out of lives ... if someone continually disrespects me, I'm done with them - I minimize all required contact and move along, and others have made similar statements. I don't think the comment was completely beside the point, we run into people and we often have no influence on how they behave towards us. For example, dealing with a lot of different cultures, some of the people I encounter have a different perception on a woman's role in society. Due to work I can't "cut them out of my life", I also can't undo the background they grew up with. The same goes if I encounter some chauvinist, of course I can make it clear that I won't tolerate certain behaviour, but the fact remains that I have to deal with it, if I want to or not - whereas a guy hardly ever will encounter it. You can cut people out of your personal life, but you can't professionally only deal with people you want to deal with, the economy simply isn't that good. A lot of times you just have to deal with people you don't want to deal with, when it comes to buying a car, I usually opt out and let my other half do it, because a guy trying to sell me a car because it "looks cool or has a nice colour" or some other such nonsense tests my patience a bit much, sure I can then go and search for another garage, but it does cost time and I hate dealing with idiots. There are differences in how women are treated, public transportation - doesn't happen very often that a guy gets his butt felt, happens to women all the time, of course you can say something and stop it, but the point is, you have to, guys don't have to. Dark alleys, most guys don't worry about rape, it's something that is on a woman's mind... Hot summer days and walking past a building side, how many guys get wolf whistles and comments? Happens to women frequently... I dare say none of us want that kind of interaction but it's just very much part of life and we don't have any influence on how they behave, sure we could go up and tell them that it's sexist behaviour, but seriously, who has the time for that?

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 4:12:12 AM)
Yes of course I agree there are differences in how women (as a group) are treated. In a professional environment, you might have to deal with the rare individual who will not respect you no matter what you do. But in my life that's been quite rare. An example: I ran a graduate program in a hard science field (read male dominated) at a major university. Part of my job was conducting the new student orientation. Think 100 new students, 90% from Asia and the Middle East, over 80% male. The first person they encounter telling them what to do, actually giving them a long list of what to do, was me, the tiny blonde female. The looks on their faces said it all. But you know what? Within a few months, the vast majority of them had come around. They knew I was good at my job, considered myself the students' advocate, and would fight for them, when necessary (I was a liaison between the school and their embassy). I remember shortly after 9/11, a group of Pakistan students were called down to Indy by INS. This is when groups of people were being called into INS in CA and they'd go "missing." I arranged for them to travel together and made sure they had my cell. Believe me, they appreciated knowing they had me (and thus the university) behind them. Can you change everyone and everything in the entire world by how you demand to be treated? No. But you can damn sure make great in-roads.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 4:43:01 AM)
My point is, that you encountered the prejudices in a male oriented field, something that I run into quite often and it's great that you dealt with it, I also manage to deal with it, it doesn't mean I like it in the least. It also means it's rubbish to claim that women are treated so equally in the work field, it means we have to work harder to overcome those hurdles guys usually don't face. There is sexism, we don't get to chose how we encounter it, it happens and we react, so cute stories about how we overcame it, well, fine, but the fact remains it's there, it's happening and women are confronted with it on every walk of life. quote: But you know what? Within a few months, the vast majority of them had come around. Now think about it, if you would have been born with a dick, there wouldn't have been a reason for the vast majority to "come around", the prejudice would not have been there.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 5:12:28 AM)
I've never claimed women are treated equally in the workforce. As someone who has worked in male dominated fields my entire life, I know how untrue that is. I do have issues with making the power imbalance between the sexes a political issue. It's not. Being female is not political, it's biological. That there is stereotypical prejudice is not political, it's sociological. Feeling bias towards groups of "others" based on appearance seems to be part of the human condition. Look at the prejudice against fat people, old people, short people, tall people, dark people, young people, poorly dressed people, red heads, blondes, geeze, the list goes on and on. My point is it only has power for you if you buy into the bias. Are there people who look down on me (pun intended) b/c I'm a short, cute, blonde, female? Of course, there are many who have (initially at least) underestimated my intelligence. Big deal, I look at engineers and think "poor people skills." We all have our biases. In my life, being female is an asset. I've made it an asset; I'm special that way.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 5:57:15 AM)
quote: My point is it only has power for you if you buy into the bias. Are there people who look down on me (pun intended) b/c I'm a short, cute, blonde, female? Of course, there are many who have (initially at least) underestimated my intelligence. Big deal, I look at engineers and think "poor people skills." Really? Sorry but it's rubbish. You don't need to buy into the bias to be treated with the bias, nothing you pick or buy into, just something that happens. Or do you have power over somebody not hiring you on account of your gender? If so, please share, because I'd really be interested to know. Oddly enough IRL I hardly ever met women working who don't notice the bias or have encountered bias one way or the other. Pretending it doesn't matter is doing women who encounter them and possibly don't know how to handle them a disservice. So because we all have our biases, it's fine that women often get the short end of the stick? I find that very objectionable. quote: In my life, being female is an asset. I've made it an asset; I'm special that way. That's nice for you, now if only your world would have a massive influence on the world in general. quote: Look at the prejudice against fat people, old people, short people, tall people, dark people, young people, poorly dressed people, red heads, blondes, geeze, the list goes on and on. Oh really? Now my hair colour never had anything to do with job interviews, being female and the carefully veiled question about family plans pretty much played into that, so I guess that makes it fine and being female is not a big deal? The fact remains that as a woman in a man's job, you have to work much harder as it's a lot easier to put down mistakes to the gender, a bit harder than putting them down to body weight, skin or hair colour. I don't know why closing the eyes so vehemently against the existing prejudices seems to be so desirable? I think it's sweeping an issue under the carpet, I'd hope that more women would venture into technical jobs, but if they hear that the bias they encounter really isn't a "real issue" because they allow it to influence them, it's not going to help and that is actually a blame the victim mentality.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 6:23:28 AM)
I started out stating I know there is bias against females in the workplace (and the rest of the world, frankly). The point of my posts is that there is a positive way of dealing with it, not that it doesn't exist. (And BTW, how do you know you didn't get the job b/c of your hair color? The interviewer may have assumed you would be too quick tempered, w/o ever informing you of that.) Bias against women is so deeply ingrained in the human psyche that many females buy into it. When I was 25, it bothered me. I resented having to work harder and to constantly be proving myself b/c I was female. Especially being a cute sexy female, many males would automatically sexualize me, which meant I had to work even harder to be viewed as a human being with a brain. In my late 50s, I've accepted what is, to the best of my ability. That doesn't mean I want to sweep it under the rug, it means I have come to terms with it, which means it doesn't have the power to make me miserable anymore. To me, that's a good thing. Why take something that is unfair to begin with and make it worse by your own thinking? The fact that I have acceptance, doesn't mean some things don't still bother me. I am sure this is why if I get approached on the other side based on my looks, I resent it. Love me for my brain or don't bother !! That's nice for you, now if only your world would have a massive influence on the world in general. Alas, I don't have a massive influence on the world in general. All I have is the abilty to influence the individuals I encounter in my daily life, the same as everyone else. but if they hear that the bias they encounter really isn't a "real issue" because they allow it to influence them, it's not going to help and that is actually a blame the victim mentality. Again, no one said it's not a real issue. But why on earth take the issue of bias against women and compound it by allowing it to have so much power over you? To my mind, that's like admitting it's true. If it's not true, show it's not and move the fuck on. Life is way too short to get overly fussed over the dickheads in this world.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 8:16:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus LOL!! LP and I crossed posts, I just read your "flipping mess" comment! Speaking as a person who has DMd at events large and small...most of the kind of thing we are talking about here just doesnt get reported. Honestly, it's laughed off more than anything, as long as the other party doesn't try to lay hands on someone. Someone super pesky might get mentioned to the party organizer, but unless obvious rules are broken, it's looked on as a "you don't ask, you don't get". SOMEONE might want to play with the dude asking anyone and everyone to spank him! It's a matter of what we pay attention to, I guess. I used to go into every event as if I were a DM. I was also one of those go-to people, so I was on the inside of "please help me get rid of this guy" more often than I would like. It's been a long time since anyone approached ME in a less than desirable manner, but that's ME. I still see it happening, and cruise on around the problem areas. Not that I don't think of you fondly, Hib. It's just that I also happen to pay attention. [;)] What we're talking about now is various things that bother some people and others they don't. Not everybody is as good at social cues, either. One person's "can you get rid or this guy" or "he's staring" is another person's 'the guy is trying to fit in' or 'he's looking because he's too shy to walk up' or maybe even 'just the wallflower type'. Go back to that thread I wrote a couple of weeks ago about how quick some folks really are to throw the predator or the creepy label around and I think some of that applies. I don't mind the guy who walks up and asks to play. Isn't that what he came to the play party for? I have no objection to somebody asking Me if I'd like to see their marks that they got from the scene they've had. I don't consider any of that type of thing to be objectifying at all. Maybe some are just more sensitive in such areas than I am. This is why I think we are having different conversations here. Creepy guys never bother me. Creepy guys run from me. That doesn't mean that I am not aware of them. And you know perfectly well the difference between icky and just poor social skills. If I put those guys in a lineup, you could pick them. Yes, there is a spectrum from annoying to "here is your entry fee, thanks". That stuff about "we're treated how we want to be treated". Um yeah. I absolutely call bullshit on that, and the slippery slope it's teetering on. In personal relationships, yes, we do have control. When did the OP refer to that? Isn't this about stereotypes and objectification? I can absolutely assure you that the guy who wants to whip his unit out because his PA is so fabulous is NOT interested in anything but a female reaction. The more elegant and dignified you carry yourself the better.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 8:36:34 AM)
quote: This is why I think we are having different conversations here. Creepy guys never bother me. Creepy guys run from me. That doesn't mean that I am not aware of them. And you know perfectly well the difference between icky and just poor social skills. If I put those guys in a lineup, you could pick them. Yes, there is a spectrum from annoying to "here is your entry fee, thanks". That stuff about "we're treated how we want to be treated". Um yeah. I absolutely call bullshit on that, and the slippery slope it's teetering on. In personal relationships, yes, we do have control. When did the OP refer to that? Isn't this about stereotypes and objectification? I can absolutely assure you that the guy who wants to whip his unit out because his PA is so fabulous is NOT interested in anything but a female reaction. The more elegant and dignified you carry yourself the better. I agree, we are having two different conversations. Yes, this is a conversation about stereotypes and objectification. But one side is speaking of how things are as a group, and most especially the extremes of the group (rapists) and the other is talking individual action or reaction. I'm of the mind that there is nothing any one of us can do about the objectification of females as a group, except to deal with it on an individual case by case basis. B/c that's what it comes down to. Rhetoric about how females are stereo-typified and objectified changes nothing, changing how you perceive it and react to it does. I mean really, would you let some wanker on the street that pulled his willy out bother you? B/c I'd just laugh. When I was 12 years old, those kind of creeps disturbed me. Now it cracks me up that someone think it's that easy to objectify me. JMO ladies, YMMV

LadyPact -> RE: Did anyone else notice .. (8/2/2011 9:44:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus This is why I think we are having different conversations here. Could be. Really, if you don't read the first four pages of the thread, it's kind of hard to know what it was supposed to be about in the first place. However, I believe it has got to be about the supposed expectations that males have for females as related to the world of kink. From follow up posts by the OP, I'm inclined to think it's more focused on what happens on the net. Unless I missed it, there were no comments about the local scene from anything the OP said. quote: Creepy guys never bother me. Creepy guys run from me. That doesn't mean that I am not aware of them. And you know perfectly well the difference between icky and just poor social skills. If I put those guys in a lineup, you could pick them. Yes, there is a spectrum from annoying to "here is your entry fee, thanks". Yes, there is, but at the same time, there's also a spectrum from women from everything is sexual objectification to not viewing it that way at all. See, if it would have been Me creating this original, I'd have said something very similar to what I did on page four. Basically, that boils down to I don't care about what some guy thinks I'm supposed to do. I do things My way because I want to and I honestly don't give a darn what people who don't even know Me expect. quote: That stuff about "we're treated how we want to be treated". Um yeah. I absolutely call bullshit on that, and the slippery slope it's teetering on. In personal relationships, yes, we do have control. When did the OP refer to that? Isn't this about stereotypes and objectification? I can absolutely assure you that the guy who wants to whip his unit out because his PA is so fabulous is NOT interested in anything but a female reaction. The more elegant and dignified you carry yourself the better. Yes, you are allowing yourself to be treated that way if the guy who whips out his PA isn't taken care of by telling him that isn't acceptable to you. Heck, any DM or member of the board could have taken care of that. To Me, that says somebody failed at some point. Most likely, the person who didn't get the issue taken care of because they didn't want the guy whipping it out to every female in attendance. Might also be a case of folks not presenting the information in their orientation during their vetting process. I do get that a lot of groups out there no longer have their old yahoo groups and instead publicly announce their events on Fet. I'm still a member of a couple of groups that don't. Those are the same ones that specifically tell people that they can't troll on the group site or they would be deleted, that part of being allowed to attend the play party means that you will follow the dungeon rules or you won't be back, and that includes not involving other people in your kink if they don't want to be. If that's not teaching people in the kink community how we expect to be treated, I don't know what is.

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