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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/4/2011 11:39:58 PM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

Maybe you are completely wrong as usual.

really? how the fuck does

quote:

a system in which the people choose representatives who, in turn, make policy decisions on their behalf.

differ from

quote:

Main Entry:       representative democracy
Part of Speech:       n
Definition:       a type of democracy in which the citizens delegate authority to elected representatives

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 12:58:32 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Maybe you missed it but another name for our form of government is representative democracy.

Well, not quite. A representative democracy allows for a monarchy and our form of government does not but they do serve similiar functions in that they both allow the people to elect reps to speak on our behalf. Our one up is that we can recall any rep up to and including the president any time we choose if we can gather enough voters to do so. By contrast the Queen of England can dissolve parliament (at her peril of course) and the President does not have the power to dissolve a duly elected Congress.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 1:28:32 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

A representative democracy allows for a monarchy and our form of government does not

sorry but that's just stupid. representative democracy has fuck all to do with a monarchy or not. the u.s. is a republic, which is a form of representative democracy.
a constitutional monarchy may or may not be a representative democracy, the uk/canadian version is.

come on, use your fucking heads, think it through. representative democracy - what do the fucking words mean? its any fucking system where representatives of the citizens are selected democratically to govern in the name of the citizens. that is what it means, and that's all it fucking means.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 4:51:45 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

A representative democracy allows for a monarchy and our form of government does not
sorry but that's just stupid. representative democracy has fuck all to do with a monarchy or not. the u.s. is a republic, which is a form of representative democracy.
a constitutional monarchy may or may not be a representative democracy, the uk/canadian version is.

come on, use your fucking heads, think it through. representative democracy - what do the fucking words mean? its any fucking system where representatives of the citizens are selected democratically to govern in the name of the citizens. that is what it means, and that's all it fucking means.

Wiki: Representative Democracy

You're wrong there. It also means a less baroque system than the one you have, without any of the stuff your constitution imposes as a check on government powers.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 5:41:37 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sounds like the petitions are working and "someone's" feeling the heat.

You may be right, Popeye! I sign petitions for causes a lot. I send letters to my congressmen too. I recently got a letter back in response to one I wrote from my congressman, Bill Nelson. I hope his response (and stance) on the issues I wrote about and he replied to were sincere. So, I do think expressing yourself to the right people, in the right way, makes them listen. Whether they care enough or not to respond, is another thing, but that they would take the time to respond on your views and how they see it tells you volumes about them as an individual. IMO

(or who knows, maybe Nelson takes Obama's approach to public expression) Obama chooses 10 random emails a day to read and respond to. Maybe Nelson does too and I was one of the lucky random picks!)

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 7:05:47 AM

TheHeretic

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The way I won debates, Squealer, was by building an affirmative case which approached the question in ways my opponents weren't prepared to deal with.

Now the appeal to fears may not be the most noble way to persuade, but it is what it is, and you could post 500 Youtube videos without ever topping the one of the President deciding to announce that he doesn't know if the Social Security checks are going to go out on time.

This is the use of fear tactics to keep people from participating in the process at all. Your answer to that is to say that it's a bad process anyway, and to namecall. Flowsheet says.... You're a loser. Reality says... You're a partisan whore who smears shit all over whatever high ethical horse you try to ride today.

Oh, and by the way, the people behind this ad have been forced to declare that they are a political group, and that the spot is sponsored by big labor, not a psa in the public interest.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 7:08:17 AM

Owner59

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lolololololololololol!

More like, debate chump.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 7:31:58 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

You're wrong there.

no i'm not. read your own fucking link, or any of these

Dictionary Search Results Web definitions

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to autocracy and direct democracy.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

A system of government where the legislative, judicial, and executive powers are held by directly or indirectly elected officials.regentsprep.org/regents/global/vocab/topic.cfm

form of government in which the people choose representatives to make decisions for themsocsci.gulfcoast.edu/dreese/glosterm.htm

A form of democracy in which people elect a small number of people to represent their interests and views in legislative bodies.www.csa.com/factsheets/supplements/worldpolthesa.php

a government in which the adult citizens of the country vote to elect the country's leaders. These elected leaders make the governmental decisions.www.enchantedlearning.com/election/glossary.shtml

A form of democracy in which the citizens select other to act on their behalf.www.thenagain.info/webchron/glossary/glossary.html

You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.www.taprootgop.org/Definitions.htm

A system of government where citizens elect public officials to govern on their behalf.www2.bakersfieldcollege.edu/jbrigham/PS1 Spring 2001/politic…

next time know what the fuck you're talking about.

oh yeah, just a fyfi: i'm canadian.

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 8/5/2011 7:36:29 AM >

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 7:42:26 AM

Moonhead

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Missed the quotation from Scheb, did we?

quote:

The United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 8:07:13 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Missed the quotation from Scheb, did we?

quote:

The United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered.

nope. i saw it, and unlike you, i fucking well understood it. the fact that the u.s. has features that differ from those of other representative democracies doesn't alter it's fundamental nature.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 8:16:20 AM

mnottertail

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I wonder if they put addresses on commie petitions? Cyrillic I am not deft at.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/5/2011 8:17:00 AM >

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 9:15:20 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
sorry but that's just stupid. representative democracy has fuck all to do with a monarchy or not. the u.s. is a republic, which is a form of representative democracy.
a constitutional monarchy may or may not be a representative democracy, the uk/canadian version is.

come on, use your fucking heads, think it through. representative democracy - what do the fucking words mean? its any fucking system where representatives of the citizens are selected democratically to govern in the name of the citizens. that is what it means, and that's all it fucking means.

First of all, I don't allow people to speak to me that manner. Second, cutting out a very pertinent piece of my post is just not cool.

Third, the entire subject of this thread is DIRECT democracy. The theme of the thread is whether or not our form of direct democracy in California is being circumvented by fearmongering tactics. My post already pointed out that representative democracy and a republic shared a common value (the part you cut out when you quoted my post - how convenient) but also some differences. To get the subject back on topic, I then pointed out how we use our direct democracy to do things like recalls (how Davis got fired) or with initiatives on ballots - like passing Prop 8 which I believe Ken alluded to and the Medical Marijuana initiative which I think Rich brought up.

Your post is absolutely irrelevant to the issue and as I had already written about the shared value between a republic and a representative democracy it was also redundant and served no purpose other than for you to put someone down in order to puff up your chest. The attempt was obvious, petty and pathetic.

Now, get civil or get lost. Your choice.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 9:20:44 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's also how candidates get on the ballot, Rodg.

Ken, thanks again for showing off that authoritarian streak, so potent in the left. Keep up he good work.

It's not authoritarioan liar. I simply think California would be better off without the ballot initiatives that have so thoroughly messed up the state. I'm all for the California government, a republic.

Well that's nice, Ken. Maybe you can move out here, and change it. No doubt we get some nonsense on the ballot, but we get our say, too (medical marijuana being a nice example). I notice you conveniently ignoring that frightening people away from participating in the process is an easy way to control who gets into those legislative houses you have such confidence in.

Authoritarian, Ken. Go look yourself in the eye in the mirror, and repeat it three times. Get used to it.

I lived out there for a while. I know just how fucked the state is because of the ballot initiative process.

For instance why is fire control in Southern California so hard? Because the population has boomed and a ballot initiative passed in the 70's makes it nearly impossible for counties to raise property tax rates to pay for new fire stations, equipment and personel.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 3:10:43 PM

Arpig

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quote:

lolololololololololol!

More like, debate chump.

Oh how I have missed the high level of intellectual debate down here in the basement.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 6:35:02 PM

TheHeretic

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Yeah, Ken, I bet the idea of the People telling the government how increases in the property taxes are going to work just burns you up. Fucking ignorant proles. These decisions should be made by their betters, and they should be happy to obey, and pay up, huh? And just think, if nobody is willing to put their names on a petition, only the "right" ones will ever get on the ballot, at all! Is that somewhere at the heart of your position?

You'd love to talk about a big, complicated thing like fighting wildland fires under extreme weather conditions instead, I'm sure. You're sitting there, defending trying to frighten people away from participating in the process, and the only fire I'm going to talk about here is the one your feet are in.

Have a nice evening.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 6:48:48 PM

willbeurdaddy

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FR

The lies that unions tell in ads/newspaper interviews are indefensible, but nobody calls them on it.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/5/2011 8:12:13 PM

Arpig

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quote:

First of all, I don't allow people to speak to me that manner.

First of all, you don't have that ability here. You don't get to control how people say things here, you should know that by now.

Second of all she was correcting an obvious mistake you made in defining a term, there was no point in quoting more of what you said as she was simply disputing that definition.

Thirdly...

quote:

To get the subject back on topic, I then pointed out how we use our direct democracy to do things like recalls (how Davis got fired) or with initiatives on ballots - like passing Prop 8 which I believe Ken alluded to and the Medical Marijuana initiative which I think Rich brought up.

Yes you did do this, but you did it by stating that this was an advantage of the U.S. system over a representative democracy, which is incorrect, as the U.S. IS a representative democracy.

You may not like the way she said it, but she was perfectly correct, and was perfectly correct to point it out.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/6/2011 5:26:44 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yeah, Ken, I bet the idea of the People telling the government how increases in the property taxes are going to work just burns you up. Fucking ignorant proles. These decisions should be made by their betters, and they should be happy to obey, and pay up, huh? And just think, if nobody is willing to put their names on a petition, only the "right" ones will ever get on the ballot, at all! Is that somewhere at the heart of your position?

You'd love to talk about a big, complicated thing like fighting wildland fires under extreme weather conditions instead, I'm sure. You're sitting there, defending trying to frighten people away from participating in the process, and the only fire I'm going to talk about here is the one your feet are in.

Have a nice evening.

There's nothing big and complicated about 90+% of wildfires of Southern California They could be controled quickly and efficiently if the area had the same density of firefighters and equipment as the resyt of the nation. The reason the area doesn't is because property taxes in areas converted from farms to subdivisions are still paying property taxes like the area was rural because the counties are prevented from raising the millage rate by a dumbass ballot initiative from the 1970's.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/6/2011 7:39:37 AM

TheHeretic

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Your hijack attempt says it all, Ken. You prefer the authoritarian model, but as with other things, you are far too much of a pussy to admit it.

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RE: Fearmongering and political petitions - 8/6/2011 9:04:29 AM

Owner59

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uwww,constant repetition of your trolly "authoritarian" dig,so devastating.....lol,and so meaningless coming from the "debate champ".

Actually,conservatives are more prone to follow the authoritarian model than liberals,historically and traditionally.

In the con mindset,the relationship with America is that of a child toward their parents.

For the liberal,it`s the other way around, more of a tough-love relationship with her.Liberals traditionally, don`t have a "love America,right or wrong" mindset.

America, is like our charge,our responsibility,our most precious blessing,like our child.Like a parent,we are going to love our nation as much as anyone,but like a good parent,we aren`t going to put up with bad behavior and will criticize her in public.

That`s what responsible parents do,they guide and keep their kids in line,even if it means a public spanking.And what responsible citizens do, too.

It`s inarguable that cons,republicans and the like,tend to support America,no matter what it does or how it behaves."Love America....,right or wrong".

Go up the the kids of the worst most vile person you know and they`ll back their parents 100%and tell you go eat shit with your criticisms.That`s how it works.To kids,their parents can`t do wrong in their eyes.They could be thieves or mobsters and UMs will still look up to them and love them,right or wrong.It`s hard wired like that.That`s how cons feel about America.

They also think they love America more than anyone else,which shows the child-like POV.

The kid-like irrationality that would lend one child to declare to there sibling"I love mom and dad more than you",is also at play in the conservative mindset.They are more loyal and love America and god than anyone else.

We love America too,but not "right or wrong".

We love America the way a responsible parent loves their child.

We seek to correct her when wrong and support her when right,the same way a good parent guides their most precious blessing.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/6/2011 9:07:29 AM >

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