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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I actually tried to develop friendships with local kinky people but I found that we didn't have enough in common outside of kink to sustain a friendship. The one local kinky friendI still have, a good friend actually, someone that I met on this site in 2004, is even more disconnected from this scene. He, like I, isn't all that enchanted with it.

I think the issue is that the relationship cannot start from a kink place. At least not the kind of relationship I want.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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It sounds like you are feeling some of that frustration now. Are your expectations too high? I don't know, and it really doesn't matter.

I won't deny there is some frustration, but this thread was started more with the goal of finding answers (I'm a solutions person) than venting frustration, though clearly not everyone got this!

As for expectations, well ideally, we should not have expectations, as when you don't have expectations, you cannot be dissapointed, right? But it's kind of hard not to have any.

What I actually have more than expectations are criteria. There are certain things I want. I don't expect them, so if I don't have them, I'm not dissapointed. That said, I won't settle for anything less and won't comprimise for anything less. As I stated earlier, I'd rather be single for the right reasons than in a relationship for the wrong ones.

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
While I enjoy kink a lot and BDSM, it's not the core thing I would look for if I was "on the market", other things like being able to be with somebody, sitting down and having a talk and just enjoying each other's company are so much more important.

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Maybe disconnect is the wrong word here, I would say it's possibly more that there is too much of a focus on the kink/BDSM aspect of the relationship and that overshadows other things, instead of a disconnect, often you do not get the chance to connect on another level because of the perceived expectancy, crossed wires?

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

This "disconnect" is only as wide as the individuals involved. Sometimes it may be as wide as the ocean, and the people are not well matched at all. Other times, it may only be as wide as a narrow creek, but one (or both) of the people involved refuse to compromise any of their expectations, setting things up to fail.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Patience may be a virtue, but I don't remember anyone ever saying that frustration shouldn't go along with it.

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Ideally, we MUST have expectations in order to find happiness. Thinking otherwise is just silly. Imagine if you had none, how many partners would be just fine? Disappointment is part of life.

Honestly, criteria and expectations are not different, and you can say you don't have any until the cows come home. The reality is that if you have "criteria" that you MUST have, it isn't any different than having expectations.

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I agree it is much better to be single than settle for something less than you want just to be in a relationship. However, it is not uncommon for people to have "criteria" that is so tough, it is unlikely anyone would ever be a match. I have no idea what your expectations are, so I'm not saying that is the situation you have. What I am saying is that very often people set their personal expectations high as a way of making them stay single subconsciously.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
While I enjoy kink a lot and BDSM, it's not the core thing I would look for if I was "on the market", other things like being able to be with somebody, sitting down and having a talk and just enjoying each other's company are so much more important.

And it's not the first thing I look for either. Only one of my serious relationships have originated from a BDSM environement and that was a long time ago.

But then again, when I find myself in an intimate relationship with someone who I like on many levels and I feel I need to supress my dominant side, then it becomes an issue.

It's the old adage: it's not an issue until it's an issue.

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Maybe disconnect is the wrong word here, I would say it's possibly more that there is too much of a focus on the kink/BDSM aspect of the relationship and that overshadows other things, instead of a disconnect, often you do not get the chance to connect on another level because of the perceived expectancy, crossed wires?

This is getting very close to the crux of the problem.

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Then simply go with not dating but just meeting people, in case you feel there is a connect you mention your "interest" aka dominant nature casually and see where it leads? This way there is no pressure, no "kink expectation", you got time to get to know the person and before it gets serious you can drop hints and see if they pick them up, still not a guarantee for success but maybe a better shot at it?

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To be honest, the whole kinky dating always made me a bit uncomfy because in most cases I felt reduced to an aspect of my sexuality, sort of "yeah, dominant, sadist oh hell yeah and a person comes with that - can't I just have the leather clad idea I have, do I also have to deal with the real life person?"

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze



Then simply go with not dating but just meeting people, in case you feel there is a connect you mention your "interest" aka dominant nature casually and see where it leads? This way there is no pressure, no "kink expectation", you got time to get to know the person and before it gets serious you can drop hints and see if they pick them up, still not a guarantee for success but maybe a better shot at it?

To be honest, the whole kinky dating always made me a bit uncomfy because in most cases I felt reduced to an aspect of my sexuality, sort of "yeah, dominant, sadist oh hell yeah and a person comes with that - can't I just have the leather clad idea I have, do I also have to deal with the real life person?"

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Then simply go with not dating but just meeting people, in case you feel there is a connect you mention your "interest" aka dominant nature casually and see where it leads? This way there is no pressure, no "kink expectation", you got time to get to know the person and before it gets serious you can drop hints and see if they pick them up, still not a guarantee for success but maybe a better shot at it?

To be honest, the whole kinky dating always made me a bit uncomfy because in most cases I felt reduced to an aspect of my sexuality, sort of "yeah, dominant, sadist oh hell yeah and a person comes with that - can't I just have the leather clad idea I have, do I also have to deal with the real life person?"

When I was single, this was a common approach for me. I've dated far more vanilla or merely "kink curious" men than subs, and was far more used to calling the shots as far as when the kink was brought into the relationship, and then how much/how intense/how often. Once chemistry is in place, it's not that difficult - most men like women who are creative with their sensuality. and personality-wise, I was always attracted to men who were not super controlling, bossy, or overly assertive.

The challenge I found was that at some point, non-kinkily-wired-men don't quite understand that my sadistic/sensual side and my desire for bondage, S&M, and humiliation aren't just a diversion, but they are a real need. I can't just take it or leave it. They can't decide two years in, "Well, I am kind of tired of the kinky fun and games, let's hang that up." It won't happen. And at that point, you are both emotionally very invested.

I knew that for the long haul I would need a man that could fully appreciate me as a woman, a best friend AND a sadist - and either be fine with enduring it for the eternity of the relationship, or open to me playing with other men, or both.

For the sub men that are honestly seeking RELATIONSHIPS (long term, marriage, family, kids, whatever you envision your permanent relationship to look like), I still think they have to overcome impulse, impatience, and learn to absolutely NEVER bring up kink with their potential femdom mate, and replicate as much as possible what vanilla courtship looks and feels like - and just know that she will express her dominance on her own time.

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Unfortunately, a lot of sub men don't know what vanilla courtship looks like, and they believe that as a sub, one of their freedoms is freedom from that dance - and for most women, it's not.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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Unfortunately, a lot of sub men don't know what vanilla courtship looks like, and they believe that as a sub, one of their freedoms is freedom from that dance - and for most women, it's not.

And there's the disconnect!

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In this economy .... one has to fill out a LOT of applications ... to get a job!

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Here's an excerpt from a fairly autobiographical story I wrote in (gasp) 1999 and I think it touches on some of the key elements of this discussion (the full story is posted in creative writing):

David must have known what he was doing. The lack of submissive posturing, the choice of appropriate questions ("How does that make you feel?" vs. "What would you do to me if I were your slave?"), and the fact that he knew how to treat women.

He was a born marketer. He marketed himself to me from the start. It might have all been planned. Because by the time we actually had our first S&M experience, he was already in my head.

I adored him for never lowering his eyes in deference to me out of the blue or when I just raised my voice in an assertive way, I adore the way he didn't cower (self indulgently) when I playfully got stern with him. He'd chuckle at me and humor me, but that was about it.

I was fascinated at how he regarded the dominant side of me as if it were some mysterious affliction - not a cool sexual road trip for him. He asked questions of me that I could not even answer. He had a true respect for my dominant side - but in the way that I liked.

And he was never pretentious with me, as so many men are; they read half of the stories on my website and feel they know the real me, when in reality, they usually resort to what I call "selective memory" and remember just the things in the stories they want to. The result - some fantasy femdom from hell with a 24-hour strap on ready for action and one desire: to order him around all the time.

But not only could David navigate through the maze of my web site and pluck fantasy from reality (which is no easy task, considering some pieces actually mix the two up literally paragraphs apart), he didn't use what I wrote as a reason to bring up the topic of S&M with me.

I actually was quite touched one afternoon when he read something I wrote for my job and said he was better than the Corporate Slut Stories.

It was a piece about glue.

Well, industrial glue. But it was still 750 words about glue.

I realized with David that I was truly a dominant, but not a dominant for a self identified submissive. That is, a man whose desires to submit would drive him past his own identity. David didn't want to be a submissive; he wanted to be broken, used, tortured, and to become and object for me. Because of that, there was no point in cowering to me when we were just giggling, or sending emails with that aggravating writing style of capitalizing the You's, She's and Her's.

I realized that some submissive men don't intend to do it, they just perhaps are a little quick on the trigger, so to speak. That is, you say "BOO", and they are in the corner in a ball, ready to lick your boots. You raise your tone and they lower theirs. You give them a look, and they turn to mush, which -- don't get me wrong -- is a pretty exciting connection -- but not after knowing them a total of five minutes. It doesn't mean anything unless there is something behind it.

David wanted to know me -- the real me. He wanted to make me laugh and show me a good time, and didn't do it in hopes of getting some S&M in return. He did it because that's just the kind of guy he is, and because he liked hanging out with me - just the normal me.

His fascination with my dominant desires did not relate to what I would do to him, but what he could make me feel. And he knew that would not come from asking me about my toys, offering to lace my boots out of the blue, or slipping into a submissive mind space and losing himself in his own fantasies.

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Under this metric, the man must revolve around the "whole woman" but be fully prepared to be objectified, used, and toyed with in an S&M manner.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Darling---are you trying to say that two people are just two different PEOPLE, in a RELATIONSHIP? That have to work together to figure things out? THAT MIGHT NOT BE EACH OTHER's FANTASY ALL THE TIME?

Rebel! [:D]

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Darling---are you trying to say that two people are just two different PEOPLE, in a RELATIONSHIP? That have to work together to figure things out? THAT MIGHT NOT BE EACH OTHER's FANTASY ALL THE TIME?

Rebel! [:D]

You make an amusing point, but I do wonder if this is part of the crux of the matter...and it's no one's fault, but I wonder if part of the fantasy/allure for submissive men (relationship-seeking submissive men, not fetishists or bottoms) is the perception that this kind of "female led" relationship comes without the burden of intimacy-development, relationship-development on them at all.

Or, I think another perception that is incorrect is that somehow dominant women are less selective - that somehow their dominance is attracted PRIMARILY to availability and willingness. I find that otherwise very intelligent and capable men tend to approach dominant women with a sort of, "Hi, I am interested in dominant women, and you are one, so here I am. What do we do now?" - and expect that this is the onset and start, and the control is now in the hands of the woman so he can play passenger.

This is a perception that could not have come from porn, so I don't know where it came from.

Akasha

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

We blame porn for so much, but perhaps it's also a function of the culture of entitlement. I'm sure you've met the men who think that offering themselves for play is sufficient, and we should feel grateful.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Bit of Carl Jung again: Sirens have a habit of leading poor male sailors to their deaths. Not good. [;)]