How wide is the disconnect?

How wide is the disconnect? (Full Version)

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LadyAngelika -> How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 8:35:28 AM)
In another post today, I wrote the following: quote: There is the question of what do these people consider submission. One of the things I've come to realise is that what I consider to be submission from a man is very different than what most men who want to offer me submission view it. There really has been but a small, nay miniscule, handful of men who fit my paradigm of what I considered to be truly submissive, the way I like it. There seems to be a HUGE disconnect between what I want and what most of the men who offer submission want. And I'm not just talking online, but in person as well. The purpose of this post is not to bitch about submissive men. It's to try and get an understanding of how wide this disconnect actually is and what might be the major differences in perspectives. I know we've tackled this subject before in this forum under different angles but I figured perhaps phrasing the issue another way might somehow elicit new perspectives on the issue. Or perhaps, if you don't find there is a disconnect, your perspective would be very valuable as well in telling us how you feel the connection. works for you.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:03:08 AM)
I don't think it's possible or wise to generalize on this topic, and I don't imagine this thread will go any better than discussions of what is "real" or "true" ever go. It really depends on the guy. For example, my best friend is a submissive man who identifies as a slave. He and his girlfriend/domme are very well matched. However, you might not consider him submissive at all. He is cheeky, sarcastic and calls bullshit when he sees it, even when it's on her. And that's what she likes. She's called him the fool to her queen, because he is allowed to say things no one else is. He's allowed to give her an honest, even critical opinion and she'll take it. But there's no doubt about who is in charge in their relationship. None. Is there a disconnect there? For someone else, there might be, but for them it works. So the question isn't how wide is the disconnect between submissive men and dominant women or why does it exist, it's how large is the disconnect between submissive men and you and why does it exist? The "you" in this sentence is the general "you" and applies to everyone.

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:05:57 AM)
quote: So the question isn't how wide is the disconnect between submissive men and dominant women or why does it exist, it's how large is the disconnect between submissive men and you and why does it exist? The "you" in this sentence is the general "you" and applies to everyone. Which is what I did. I do know however, in speaking with many Dommes, that I'm not the only one who deals with this. And it is also why I asked the question that for those who don't see it, to chime in with another perspective. That said, I'm not so sure why it is important for you to outline that this is about me, when I clearly stated that it was in great part...

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:07:43 AM)
quote: I don't think it's possible or wise to generalize on this topic, and I don't imagine this thread will go any better than discussions of what is "real" or "true" ever go. Oh and on this, it will depend on whether someone wishes to respond to this thread productively or not. I clearly set it up for a productive discussion. The choice now belongs to the users of CM.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:14:00 AM)
What I'm saying is that it's not possible to make general statements that will have any validity. It can only be looked at from the perspective of one-on-one interaction and will vary from person to person. A disconnect may exist between what I want and what the vast majority of submissive people want, but that has less to do with them than it does with me. I don't think looking outward at submissive men is the answer, or at least not the whole answer, and that's how your OP comes across to me. It's just as important, if not more so, to look inward at yourself, or myself, and determine if what we want is realistic and reasonable. Introspection and self-awareness is something every person should strive for, which is why I took great pains to point out that my use of "you" was in the general sense that can and does apply to everyone and not the personal use that applies to you as an individual.

AAkasha -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:19:29 AM)
I think "how wide is the disconnect" is often related to how much porn vs. how much real life (both vanilla and kinky) experience a man has with a woman, but that's not always the case. There are two different disconnects I personally see: Relationship (dominance/submissive) disconnect and topping/bottoming disconnect. With relationship "sub/femdom" disconnects, I think most men with their heart/head in the right place can work on getting a grip on reality and move to a positive place, especially if the femdom is willing and invested and interested in compromise and working with what might be some of his more 'hard wired' perceptions. There is a process of re-education that has to take place. The big disconnect I find is that sub men are impatient (and femdoms, too) and want it all to work properly right out of the gate. There are disappointments that come up when expectations have to be aligned, and it's not a matter of just saying, "Well, I am the femdom so I am right, you have to just pound sand." But the femdom also has to WANT to invest the time in helping align expectations, and that won't happen if there has been no build up of affection or trust. A man is not worth the effort if he's already being unrealistic and pushy before she has had a chance to find him charming and pleasant and worth sitting down with and figuring out where the disconnect is. I think a great deal of disconnect comes down to impatience. With tops/bottoms, I think the large disconnect is when a sub isn't honest about his fetishes. He may say he just wants to serve and the manner doesn't matter, but it's a short period of time before he's hinting and forgot to mention he liked "x, y and z" and then soon you find out, really, it's ONLY about x, y and z. I am very specific about my fetishes and I know what I like. I address this pretty early on by making sure I work to program him to enjoy my fetishes through positive reinforcement, and this helps identify if he's really into surrender, or just hanging in there until I get to his list of fetishes. If I know that's all he wants, he isn't going to get it, because I will lose interest far, far in advance. But again, it comes down to patience; if the man who wants x, y and z fetish, and only those fetishes, is patient enough to let affection and genuine attraction develop, chances are I am going to be engaged enough to incorporate x, y and z into my style. If that's all he wants though, and really, I'm just a service provider, then things will end before that stage is reached. I don't mind incorporating fetishes into my play with personal partners, but I have very specific sadistic needs that I need met. If he's just sucking it up and doing these things in hopes I am going to turn around and match his fantasies, we're not on the same page anyway. Akasha

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:22:40 AM)
quote: It's just as important, if not more so, to look inward at yourself, or myself, and determine if what we want is realistic and reasonable. Introspection and self-awareness is something every person should strive for, which is why I took great pains to point out that my use of "you" was in the general sense that can and does apply to everyone and not the personal use that applies to you as an individual. Absolutely! And I do this regularly. In all honesty, the reason for my two long hiatuses from this site over the years has been because I do not generally find what I'm looking for here. Actually, once I found it... That said, I'm interested in discussing with women who have similar experiences as mine, in feeling this disconnect. If this doen't apply to you, great; you're a lucky woman. I would however appreciate if you'd be so kind as to not criticise my topic just because it doesn't work for you. Deal?

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:29:05 AM)
Really? You specifically asked for opinions from those who don't feel there's a disconnect and their reasons for feeling that way. My perspective is that IF there's a disconnect, it is equally divided between both the male and female partners' expectations, which may or may not be realistic and shouldn't be laid solely at the feet of submissive men. And now you're essentially saying, "agree with me or don't post." Maybe you should have stated in your OP that you only want people to post who will pat you on the back and tell you how right you are and are not genuinely interested in diverse viewpoints. It would save everyone time and frustration.

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:35:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I think "how wide is the disconnect" is often related to how much porn vs. how much real life (both vanilla and kinky) experience a man has with a woman, but that's not always the case. There are two different disconnects I personally see: Relationship (dominance/submissive) disconnect and topping/bottoming disconnect. With relationship "sub/femdom" disconnects, I think most men with their heart/head in the right place can work on getting a grip on reality and move to a positive place, especially if the femdom is willing and invested and interested in compromise and working with what might be some of his more 'hard wired' perceptions. There is a process of re-education that has to take place. The big disconnect I find is that sub men are impatient (and femdoms, too) and want it all to work properly right out of the gate. There are disappointments that come up when expectations have to be aligned, and it's not a matter of just saying, "Well, I am the femdom so I am right, you have to just pound sand." You aren't kidding about the patience bit! I might be fooling myself, but I don't think I'm expecting for perfection from the begining. I am however expecting respect, and when I'm seen as a means to an end for the satisfaction of their fetishes (what I think you mean when you say 'hard wired perceptions'), that notion of respect just goes out the window. Sometimes I feel like the minute the qualitative Domme gets attached to my name, the fact that I'm a woman just goes out the window. I rarely have these situations happen with men who aren't involved in BDSM, even when they do notice and like my dominant predispotion. quote: But the femdom also has to WANT to invest the time in helping align expectations, and that won't happen if there has been no build up of affection or trust. A man is not worth the effort if he's already being unrealistic and pushy before she has had a chance to find him charming and pleasant and worth sitting down with and figuring out where the disconnect is. I think a great deal of disconnect comes down to impatience. I know in the past Akasha you underlined how so many find that Domme = promiscuous woman. And I think that's where their eagerness comes from. If only they realised how much they are shooting themselves in the foot by seeing us that way. Then again, maybe that's what they ultimately want, and since they have a right to their desires.... well here's a huge issue of disconnect for me. quote: With tops/bottoms, I think the large disconnect is when a sub isn't honest about his fetishes. He may say he just wants to serve and the manner doesn't matter, but it's a short period of time before he's hinting and forgot to mention he liked "x, y and z" and then soon you find out, really, it's ONLY about x, y and z. I am very specific about my fetishes and I know what I like. I address this pretty early on by making sure I work to program him to enjoy my fetishes through positive reinforcement, and this helps identify if he's really into surrender, or just hanging in there until I get to his list of fetishes. If I know that's all he wants, he isn't going to get it, because I will lose interest far, far in advance. But again, it comes down to patience; if the man who wants x, y and z fetish, and only those fetishes, is patient enough to let affection and genuine attraction develop, chances are I am going to be engaged enough to incorporate x, y and z into my style. If that's all he wants though, and really, I'm just a service provider, then things will end before that stage is reached. I don't mind incorporating fetishes into my play with personal partners, but I have very specific sadistic needs that I need met. If he's just sucking it up and doing these things in hopes I am going to turn around and match his fantasies, we're not on the same page anyway. Yeah, see, this is less of an issue. The men I meet are real quick to let me know exactly what they want. The issue is, for the most part, they don't seem to be that preoccupied with what I want. Again, this rarely happens outside of the BDSM dating world.

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:39:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Really? You specifically asked for opinions from those who don't feel there's a disconnect and their reasons for feeling that way. My perspective is that IF there's a disconnect, it is equally divided between both the male and female partners' expectations, which may or may not be realistic and shouldn't be laid solely at the feet of submissive men. Nope, not at all what I wrote. You clearly misinterpreted my OP. Look at Akasha's response as she seems to have gotten it. quote: And now you're essentially saying, "agree with me or don't post." Maybe you should have stated in your OP that you only want people to post who will pat you on the back and tell you how right you are and are not genuinely interested in diverse viewpoints. It would save everyone time and frustration. Again, not what I wrote. What I was saying is that if all you can do is complain about my choice of topic rather than contributing to it in a productive fashion, you'd be doing us a service by abstaining. There are a lot of topics here that I don't find worth discussing and I abstain. Never did I say "don't post", and putting words in my mouth is kind of a cheap shot, don't you think? I clearly remembered you as someone more fair than that.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 9:54:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Nope, not at all what I wrote. You clearly misinterpreted my OP. Look at Akasha's response as she seems to have gotten it. The burden of clarity in communication is on the speaker, in this case, you. If I have misinterpreted, then perhaps you were less clear than you supposed your OP to be. quote: Again, not what I wrote. What I was saying is that if all you can do is complain about my choice of topic rather than contributing to it in a productive fashion, you'd be doing us a service by abstaining. Again, the burden of clarity is on you. I have contributed to the thread by saying that the premise of your OP is flawed or, at the very least, incomplete in its presentation. If you wish to have a discussion centered around a flawed premise, then you may. However, you should expect there will be those who will point out the flaw in your basic premise. You should not expect those who see a fundamental flaw in your initial supposition to remain silent and the fact that you've said I should demonstrates to me that you aren't nearly as interested in discussion as you are in having your flawed premise validated by those who agree with you. quote: Never did I asy don't post and putting words in my mouth is kind of a cheap shot, don't you think? I clearly remembered you as someone more fair than that. No more so than you saying I should abstain from posting just because you don't like what I have to say. I remembered you as someone who was interested in all views, even those in dissent.

LadyAngelika -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 10:17:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Nope, not at all what I wrote. You clearly misinterpreted my OP. Look at Akasha's response as she seems to have gotten it. The burden of clarity in communication is on the speaker, in this case, you. If I have misinterpreted, then perhaps you were less clear than you supposed your OP to be. Quite possibly I could have been more clear. I've often said I come in here with half-formed ideas. That said, you could have asked for a clarification rather than attacking my presmise and making assumptions about me. Right? I'd actually like to have the discussion in the OP rather than get into a bickering match with you, if you don't mind. My hope is that perhaps this thread generates an interesting discourse, one to which I sincerly hope you might chose to contribute in a positive fashion to.

Epytropos -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 12:02:09 PM)
There seems to be an implication here that there are things which are reasonable or unreasonable to expect. Both LadyAngelika and SylvereApLeanan have spoken to that, though from slightly different perspectives, and I find the concept somewhat strange. To me it seems that it makes the most sense to expect whatever it is that makes you happy and try to find someone that fits that. Probably that springs in part from the fact that what I want is uncommon and to many unreasonable, I guess, but still it strikes me as strange that we as Dom/mes, of all people, are having a discussion over what is and is not acceptable to want.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 3:26:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Quite possibly I could have been more clear. I've often said I come in here with half-formed ideas. Knowing that your ideas are less than fully thought-out, one would expect you to make clear at the outset that the ideas you are presenting are nebulous and subject to refinement. Conversely, one would think you'd expect there to be misinterpretation of your posts based on your own admitted lack of clarity, take this into account, and be ready to clarify if you believe someone has misconstrued the intent of your post. In either case, one would think the dissenting voice would be of equal or greater interest in order to help refine precisely where your thoughts are headed. quote: That said, you could have asked for a clarification rather than attacking my presmise and making assumptions about me. Right? Had I thought I'd misconstrued your OP or felt it was vague and, therefore, that I might not be reading it correctly, then I would have indicated so. However, your OP appeared to be yet another installment of true-wayist rhetoric, which seldom goes over well. Dressing it up in different terms doesn't make it less narrow, it just makes the verbage fancier. In any case, I would not refrain from attacking the premise of your OP simply because it makes you uncomfortable. It's a flawed premise and I fail to see how a productive discussion can come from it. This is not a value judgement on you as a person, merely on an idea. Perhaps you'd be interested in why I view it as fundamentally flawed and perhaps that would engender the sort of discussion in which you'd prefer to engage. However, this is the third time you've essentially told me to either agree with your premise or STFU and I will tell you now that it's not going to happen. You can either cope with that fact or not, but you are not in a position to dictate how I respond to your OP, and I'll thank you to stop pretending you are. Nothing you've said has indicated you are interested in a dialogue; rather everything I've seen indicates you are only interested in hearing a chorus of agreement. If that's the case, then it would have been more productive, or at the very least less frustrating, had you simply made this clear at the outset rather than open the floor to dissenting opinions only to attack the first person who voiced disagreement.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 3:46:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Epytropos There seems to be an implication here that there are things which are reasonable or unreasonable to expect. To me it seems that it makes the most sense to expect whatever it is that makes you happy and try to find someone that fits that. Probably that springs in part from the fact that what I want is uncommon and to many unreasonable, I guess, but still it strikes me as strange that we as Dom/mes, of all people, are having a discussion over what is and is not acceptable to want. From my perspective, it's perfectly valid to want whatever one wants. However, it's not valid to set up a false dichotomy that presumes a disconnect between two groups based on one's personal preferences. As you pointed out, what I want may be rare, but that doesn't mean there's a disconnect between dominant women and submissive men (or women). It means there's a disconnect between me and the majority of submissive people. The disconnect is one I have created, not one that is universal. Rather than looking for an external source for this disconnect, I should be looking at myself.

LadyConstanze -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 3:51:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan From my perspective, it's perfectly valid to want whatever one wants. However, it's not valid to set up a false dichotomy that presumes a disconnect between two groups based on one's personal preferences. As you pointed out, what I want may be rare, but that doesn't mean there's a disconnect between dominant women and submissive men (or women). It means there's a disconnect between me and the majority of submissive people. The disconnect is one I have created, not one that is universal. Rather than looking for an external source for this disconnect, I should be looking at myself. Now if you state clearly what you are looking for and you get spammed by masturbation fantasies that haven't even bothered to read your profile, I don't think you need to look at yourself, it's then fairly obvious that a lot of people don't bother reading your profile. Come on, we all have noticed that there is a disproportionally larger share of guys who come here and are driven by porn fantasies about what submission is than women willing to indulge such porn fulled fantasies, maybe that's what I would think the disconnect is.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 4:29:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Now if you state clearly what you are looking for and you get spammed by masturbation fantasies that haven't even bothered to read your profile, I don't think you need to look at yourself, it's then fairly obvious that a lot of people don't bother reading your profile. As much as I would love to agree with this, I can't. While I've received my share of masterbatory spam, it has been the minority. The vast majority of what I've received in my mailbox has been polite, even if it didn't match my designated parameters. My luck just isn't that good, so there must be some other reason I'm not getting the huge volume of spam other women profess to receive. quote: Come on, we all have noticed that there is a disproportionally larger share of guys who come here and are driven by porn fantasies about what submission is than women willing to indulge such porn fulled fantasies, maybe that's what I would think the disconnect is. How many times have we told someone to turn off the computer and go meet people in real life? We've agreed multiple times that comparing online to offline is as futile as comparing apples and oranges. How is this time different? I'm still not convinced there's a disconnect between submissive men and dominant women across the board.

slaveluci -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 4:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan For example, my best friend is a submissive man who identifies as a slave. He and his girlfriend/domme are very well matched. However, you might not consider him submissive at all. He is cheeky, sarcastic and calls bullshit when he sees it, even when it's on her. And that's what she likes. She's called him the fool to her queen, because he is allowed to say things no one else is. He's allowed to give her an honest, even critical opinion and she'll take it. But there's no doubt about who is in charge in their relationship. None. QFT. This is exactly how Master and I are. Others may not consider me submissive at all but He's in charge and likes my personality and behavior as it is. Great points you made......luci

BonesFromAsh -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 4:40:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan From my perspective, it's perfectly valid to want whatever one wants. However, it's not valid to set up a false dichotomy that presumes a disconnect between two groups based on one's personal preferences. As you pointed out, what I want may be rare, but that doesn't mean there's a disconnect between dominant women and submissive men (or women). It means there's a disconnect between me and the majority of submissive people. The disconnect is one I have created, not one that is universal. Rather than looking for an external source for this disconnect, I should be looking at myself. This is so well stated and exactly how I feel...especially the bolded part...that I really can't add anything that wouldn't be seen as superfluous.

LadyConstanze -> RE: How wide is the disconnect? (8/6/2011 4:45:03 PM)
I dunno, maybe you're lucky, I think my profile is actually seriously standoffish, yet a lot of guys never even bother to read a profile. I can't really change that I guess... Of course we can tell them to go and meet somebody IRL, and then the next bevy of hopefuls signs on and wants to serve us by doing all those things "for our pleasure", we also get the occasional "add hot water instant domme worship me you worm" but compared to the guys with the porn fulled fantasies, they are in the minority. If you look at sheer numbers, there are more s-males than D-females, guys tend to be more visual creatures hence buying the BDSM porn, it fuels their erotic fantasies and they think if they get turned on by face sitting or a spanking they are instantly turned into a submissive male and like in BDSM porn women will try and kidnap them. About as likely as the pizza delivery guy being lured in by the busty Swedish twins and raped - only most pizza delivery guys won't march around and yell that all the people who order pizza are fakes!

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