RE: roiting in croydon and penge

RE: roiting in croydon and penge (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 6:35:45 AM)
quote: The result most likely will be that the cops get more money so if it should happen again they can react quicker, now since there are limited resources, the money will have to be cut from other budgets, most likely from benefits - well, great results. If they hate the cops and authorities, they couldn't have played better into the hands of them if they would be on their side. Fantastic! Worthy of rocket scientists. Pretty much what I said the aim was.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 6:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: The result most likely will be that the cops get more money so if it should happen again they can react quicker, now since there are limited resources, the money will have to be cut from other budgets, most likely from benefits - well, great results. If they hate the cops and authorities, they couldn't have played better into the hands of them if they would be on their side. Fantastic! Worthy of rocket scientists. Pretty much what I said the aim was. I doubt that somebody would be stupid enough to AIM for this with a riot. Who would gain anything from it? At the moment it looks like the police is gaining an increase of their funds - are you suggesting the police is behind the riots?

NuevaVida -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 6:52:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Nor mine Pam, but what would I know, I only spent the better part of an hour debating the morality of her actions with her over the phone. (And no, I wasn't the only person to be discussing it with her). When all people know of someone is their online personality, which, to date, has been "loud", offensive, and set on name calling when faced with someone who disagrees rather than an actual interest in understanding the other side, it's pretty easy to see how people will take what that person says with a grain of salt. It's all well and fine to finally come out and admit one's thoughts and actions were wrong - kudos for that - but don't expect everyone to applaud and cheer when it happens. Was there an apology for engaging in and encouraging others to engage in said wrong activities? No. Was there an apology for the way others have been treated? No. Has there been a notable change in demeanor toward others? Too soon to tell. So yeah, I thought it was facetious, too. But then I'm "mentally ill," a "cunt", "idiot", "delusional" and a barrel of other fun names, so what do I know? [;)] It's all good, Arpig. I'm honestly glad you took the time to show the light to what had been a very closed mind. But it doesn't mean the rest of us have any reason to change our opinions about the poster. And quite frankly, I don't think she cares whether or not we do. So she can admit her wrongness, and some folks can love her all up for it, and some other folks will give it an eye roll and move on. I don't think she cares very much, so I wouldn't concern yourself with what people think about her, either.

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 6:53:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Regardless of whether there are/were anarchists amongst the rioters, how does that make their actions right in any way, shape or form? Those targeted included innocent people who do not deserve to be subjected to what quickly evolved into a mob mentality riot. There is nothing about any of this that can be applauded. I didn't say it was right in any way shape or form, I didn't applaud it. I was merely trying to discuss it rationally, something that is not possible to do, as nobody wants to do anything but dismiss it all as some massive inexplicable simultaneous outbreak of vandalism, that just happened to coincide with the march to protest an apparently unnecessary killing. Ya know, IF this started with a protest/march, the people that organized it missed probably one of their best chances at really being heard. Imo, they should have come forward to the media and denounced the looting as criminal, encouraged people not to loot and distanced themselves from it, then put their reasons for the protest/march forward and kept doing that repeatedly. Then, imo the would have set themselves apart from the chaos and been heard by the public and the politicians at least in a real effort. They could have perhaps turned lemons into lemonade... jmo btw, i have no idea what actually started this series of events since i have no tv, dont listen to the radio and do not seek out this kind of news so have not even read anything about it except here.. so, I come to no conclusion on how or who sparked this situation, I am only addressing the theory that this started as a protest..

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:02:11 AM)
No. The initial outbreak was spontaneous. However the continuation was egged on. Ask yourself why. The most likely result of all this will be a more authoritarian government (mildly so), less sympathy for those most affected by the austerity cuts on the part of those least affected, more anger and discontent among the urban poor, more members of extremist parties (watch, a lot of people will be joining the National Front in the near future. They are preparing an analysis on their web site) and more unrest and riots in the future. Who could benefit from this situation? People who want radical change. Change is obviously needed, when people are so angry and dissatisfied that they will turn to such levels of violence there is something wrong. The important thing is to decide if you want measured change to address those issues, or do you want radical change in the entire system. I was a radical in my youth, and this sort of thing, this exploiting existing situations to exacerbate them is indeed in the handbook. If things aren't bad enough to make people embrace your solution, then you set out to make them bad enough. If the government really isn't the police state you like to portraty it, you try provoke it into behaving like one, if the "darkies" aren't really the lawless primitives you portray them as, you try to provoke them into behaving as if they were.

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:10:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig No. The initial outbreak was spontaneous. However the continuation was egged on. Ask yourself why. The most likely result of all this will be a more authoritarian government (mildly so), less sympathy for those most affected by the austerity cuts on the part of those least affected, more anger and discontent among the urban poor, more members of extremist parties (watch, a lot of people will be joining the National Front in the near future. They are preparing an analysis on their web site) and more unrest and riots in the future. Who could benefit from this situation? People who want radical change. Change is obviously needed, when people are so angry and dissatisfied that they will turn to such levels of violence there is something wrong. The important thing is to decide if you want measured change to address those issues, or do you want radical change in the entire system. I was a radical in my youth, and this sort of thing, this exploiting existing situations to exacerbate them is indeed in the handbook. If things aren't bad enough to make people embrace your solution, then you set out to make them bad enough. If the government really isn't the police state you like to portraty it, you try provoke it into behaving like one, if the "darkies" aren't really the lawless primitives you portray them as, you try to provoke them into behaving as if they were. imo you are wrong, riots will not change the situation for the better for anyone, it will make it worse. If you act like a rabid dog you will be viewed and treated like a rabid dog.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:13:40 AM)
That's cool NV. I just figured I'd point out that it wasn't facetious. People can hate her all they want, Lord knows she has given people on here ample reasons to. There are those who will accept what she said at face value, there are those who will reject it regardless of anything I or anybody says, neither of those groups is of interest to me. I was simply passing on a bit of information for the benefit of those who are undecided. Those, like myself, to whom the truth is of interest.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:15:43 AM)
quote: riots will not change the situation for the better for anyone, it will make it worse For Christ's sake! That is what I have been saying! quote: If you act like a rabid dog you will be viewed and treated like a rabid dog. That is the desired reaction.

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:22:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: riots will not change the situation for the better for anyone, it will make it worse For Christ's sake! That is what I have been saying! quote: If you act like a rabid dog you will be viewed and treated like a rabid dog. That is the desired reaction. great, how is that going to help any unemployed youth.. why would anyone hire them now? seriously, that is the desired effect? winding up in jail with a criminal record that follows them for the rest of their lives? that is the desired effect? why would anyone hire someone that stupid? imo, now any kid applying for a job will be painted with that brush.. so good luck finding any jobs now..

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:25:14 AM)
Exactly. Now ask yourself who might benefit from the situation getting even worse?

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:27:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Exactly. Now ask yourself who might benefit from the situation getting even worse? i already said that no one would

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:29:26 AM)
I can't see the UK ever turning into an extreme police state, heavens the people go mental at the mere suggestion of having to carry an ID, something that is normal in most other European countries, they operate on the premisses that if something is not forbidden, it's allowed. The change aren't dramatic, most of the population is against the rioters, the people are banding together to help with the clean up. I still believe the "riots" that followed were motivated by greed, the Manchester police confirmed that the looting was quite organized, vans that waited to be loaded and people driving off with expensive goods while the cops were busy battling with youngsters who were raiding sport shops. My other half got a friend out who happened to be in Manchester and got caught on his way back in the riots, if you're familiar with the layout of where it happened, you can easily see how they could avoid the police, middle of Manchester was bombed by the IRA and they rebuild it, a massive shopping center that is ugly like hell, surrounded by a rabbit warren of little side streets that are rather narrow and make it hard for police cars to get through, the police doesn't want to split up their forces, so one person seeing which way they take and sending it out on the Blackberry, the others check and avoid and take another side street - they are familiar with the area. From the published texts that were sent, it's a lot of gangs calling out to other gang members, warning them to bring baclavas and letting them know which one of the sport shops they were going to loot. Now a bunch of other criminals just check their BBs, they're marginally more clever than the thugs go "OK, they are going to go for JD Sports... Cops will be busy, further down the road is an electronic store and a jeweler (easy to carry valuable goods, tech and precious metals/stones), get the car, we're going in, the alarm will get off but we have at least 30 to 40 minutes before the cops can be there, they're going to have their hands full with the kids/gangs!" Pretty simple really. Now they are marginally smarter than the idiots raiding JD Sports and burning Selfridges down, but the first arrests are made, because some idiot put 40 or 50 iPhones on eBay - in the same area in which a shop was looted and the picture he took showed the box with the address of the shop from which it was looted on. Again a true rocket scientist at work... I know you don't like Moonie and me calling the looters trackie bottom and hoodie wearing scum (and Hannah might think I am a snob, but it is more if you live in the UK and you see a bunch of people dressed like that, you tend to avoid them because they are very often violent - their choice is to dress a certain way, which is not bad because they're very visible and you can then change direction, or shop and pub owners can refuse entrance) but if you look at all the footage of the looting, what do you see? Hoodies and tracksuit bottoms.... [image]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/10/article-2024203-0D5EF15C00000578-47_964x663.jpg[/image]

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:31:44 AM)
And you are wrong. Lots of people would. I explained it quite clearly in many posts, but you ignore it. You are a book written a long time ago, there are no more blank pages. You are unable to learn. You are willfully blind to what is right in front of you.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:33:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Exactly. Now ask yourself who might benefit from the situation getting even worse? i already said that no one would The police - the MET was a lot under fire, all of a sudden people are supporting them, the police will get more resources and money. So if we apply logic we would say somebody who LIKES the police would be behind that? I doubt that very much, I think it was just something that went completely tits up.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:39:16 AM)
If nothing is done, the situation will only get worse. These riots are not the end, they are only a step on the path. More will come. Maybe not right away, maybe not in the UK, but more will come. So go ahead, sweep up the broken glass, shake your heads and share your disdain of the lawless violent hoodies with your neighbours. Then lock your doors and watch your TV. But don't waste your time pretending to be shocked or confused the next time it happens, because it will, and you and those who share your attitude will have caused it.

NuevaVida -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:40:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig That's cool NV. I just figured I'd point out that it wasn't facetious. People can hate her all they want, Lord knows she has given people on here ample reasons to. There are those who will accept what she said at face value, there are those who will reject it regardless of anything I or anybody says, neither of those groups is of interest to me. I was simply passing on a bit of information for the benefit of those who are undecided. Those, like myself, to whom the truth is of interest. No problem, Arpig, I appreciate the reply.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 7:56:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig If nothing is done, the situation will only get worse. These riots are not the end, they are only a step on the path. More will come. Maybe not right away, maybe not in the UK, but more will come. So go ahead, sweep up the broken glass, shake your heads and share your disdain of the lawless violent hoodies with your neighbours. Then lock your doors and watch your TV. But don't waste your time pretending to be shocked or confused the next time it happens, because it will, and you and those who share your attitude will have caused it. Oh really? How so? By working, paying tax and NOT looting? Come on, we have heard all that rubbish before, I'm glad that the cops are now issued rubber and plastic pellets to deal more effectively with it should it happen again! Btw you think it's people like me who cause this? People who most likely will pay higher taxes due to it, or the people like the guy who comes later? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ift78O95Bw&feature=player_embedded Criminals cause it, they will be dealt with like criminals, and nope, I am not feeling a lot of pity for them, sue me for it. A friend got injured, the car got scratched to fuck and back, yeah, I don't particularly feel like hugging the scum who did it, would you? They are dressing deliberately this way, so if you do dress up like criminals and you get treated like one, it seems to be a bit odd to complain about the "prejudices" people have.

agirl -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 8:16:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: riots will not change the situation for the better for anyone, it will make it worse For Christ's sake! That is what I have been saying! quote: If you act like a rabid dog you will be viewed and treated like a rabid dog. That is the desired reaction. No the riots will not change anything for the better at all. I think most reasoned people know this. This in fact, is quite a marginal section of the UK as a whole. It's not at all suprising that it really only occurs in cities where you can be part of anonymous mob. If it was tried in this little market-town you'd be picked up within hours. There are FAR more people that have very little, that spend their time finding ways around it by cutting their costs and going without. I wouldn't dispute for a moment that there is an element of disenfranchised folk involved.......Urban-living breeds discontent by the close proximity of others with the same attitude and circumstances. When you drift outside of large cities you don't get the same fevered response to hardship, it's tempered by living among family and others who have even less. You also don't have the evidence of high living around you all the time when you wander down the street. In a way, it's a far more realistic view of life. The hardships affect everyone, not just urban young men. My son is affected by the cuts in EMA so works more hours to compensate and to support his education himself. Maybe it's easier to do that when you know that it's expected of you, and when you accept that no-one else is going to. There are lots of socio-economic problems that cut right across the country, rural to city..EMA was cut for everyone, not just those in urban situations. The less well off outside of cities still have to get on with it. There were a few good points made on Newsnight by young men that were part of the fray, or at least were close to it.......they didn't support the looting, wholesale damage and destruction, but they tried to explain why SOME sections of the element taking part did what they did. If my sons want to protest anything, they've been taught to face difficult situations head on, bywriting or by talking directly without being part of a hidden group. They must stand up and be counted as young men, alone, convinced of their convictions. agirl

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 8:16:43 AM)
quote: Btw you think it's people like me who cause this? Yes. People who willfully ignore the obvious. There is a large segment of society that has absolutely no interest in maintaining your peaceful lives, because they do not benefit from society. Are you forgetting that there were violent protests in the UK just last November as well? Why do these people turn to violence so quickly? They are no more naturally prone to it than you or I, they don't have some sort of psychological malfunction that makes them prone to criminal behaviour. So why? I suggest it is because they do not feel they are a part of the society that benefits from the present system, and therefore they feel they have nothing to lose by the violence. They feel they are entitled to some of the benefits of society, yet they also feel that society is denying them the opportunity to get them. When your options are the dole or minimum wage (hardly better, I've lived on both), you don't really have much choice. And when some rich bastard tells you that you have to do without while he doesn't, well it just reinforces that idea that you don't really belong, so what's the harm in smashing it. You aren't part of it, so tear it down. This feeling of being unvalued and ostracized is at the heart of all the unrest, the legitimate protests and political actions that go violent, the random arson and destruction, and the widespread looting. They all have their origin in the discontent of the poorest members of society. If you do nothing to change that discontent, then you will be to blame for the next round of violence.

agirl -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 8:31:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig If nothing is done, the situation will only get worse. These riots are not the end, they are only a step on the path. More will come. Maybe not right away, maybe not in the UK, but more will come. So go ahead, sweep up the broken glass, shake your heads and share your disdain of the lawless violent hoodies with your neighbours. Then lock your doors and watch your TV. But don't waste your time pretending to be shocked or confused the next time it happens, because it will, and you and those who share your attitude will have caused it. Funnily enough, I'm not at all shocked by it. Even in this small, quiet town there is quite a large element of badly-done-by people who find it frustrating that others have more....or that their situation is the pits, due to circumstances.( My own daughter is in a shit situation) Many of them are out on the lash, forgiven, because it's their only pleasure, and a way to forget the fact that they'll probably have to struggle for ever and a day. I get a little fed up when they pitch a stone through my tatty old car's window when they wend their way home, half-cut, though, for a laugh. agirl

Page: << < prev 15 16 [17] 18 19 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

6.054688E-02