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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 12:57:30 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Yes, that's my understanding as well. I can understand it as well. If only "The Man" has guns, then you will come to resent the implied threat in that.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:02:14 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I agree, i'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to hammer out exactly what needs to be done, but somehow, we have to find a way for everybody to live well. there is more than enough wealth available, it's just concentrated in too few hands.


oh yeah,.. like thats gonna happen.. the wealthy can get their money out of the country faster than you can spit.. remember the Bronfmans and how they got the govt to make an exception for their $$$? They got it out no problemo...

eta that was out totally tax free!

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/9/2011 1:03:15 AM >

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:05:22 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

We have our issues here, the same pressures to cut and slash are at work here. the same accumulation of wealth is happening here as well, just not to the same degree. Obviously, being a relatively content Canadian, I think that Canada could indeed be a good model. We have a seemingly workable combination of capitalist and socialist doctrine.

However, as I said, the present government has as one of its aims the reversal, or at least gutting, of much of our social legislation. I fear, if they succeed, then we will see problems here as well.



The situation is similar here in Australia, Arpig. Though our current Govt is committed to policies of social justice, I fear its commitment to free market economics - the main driver of wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich - may over ride this.

The polarising trends are there to be seen where ever free market economics hold sway. Making the rich richer at the expense of the rest of us is what free market economics is all about. That's why the rich and their enforcers on the right of politics are so fond of it.


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:05:42 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Well, perhaps that is why more and more people are turning to increasingly radical and violent solutions.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:08:57 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
It is a world wide thing, it is a systemic failure of the global economic system to provide for everybody. The rich prosper, and everybody else is getting poorer.


It may interest you to know that twenty-some odd years ago, Barbara Frum had two economists on "The Journal" and they predicted the erosion of the middle class. They believed that eventually there would be the haves and the have nots, with no middle ground. Unless there are some radical changes in everyone's outlook (such as turning away from greed) I believe it's inevitable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
No RML, in NRAland, only law abiding citizens have guns. that's why there is no need to control them.


I do hope you were being facetious.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:10:18 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I'm a socialist, but I'm not wedded to any one solution, I'm open to anything, because something has to be done, the system is broken. It isn't serving the majority, and that majority is beginning to stir. It's happening in the UK right now, it happened in Greece, it happened in Toronto and Seattle with the anti-globalization riots (which the right-wingers who are bemoaning the loss of American jobs were condemning at the time...guess they know who was right now, eh?)

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:11:25 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Well, perhaps that is why more and more people are turning to increasingly radical and violent solutions.

and that will get them what exactly? (besides a jail sentence, I mean)

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:14:02 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

I do hope you were being facetious.
I was trying to be. 

Yes, I agree with that basic premise, that the focus on endless growth and accumulation of more has to change. I, unfortunately don't see it happening peacefully or soon.


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:15:26 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		In the end...revolution.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:18:31 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I do hope you were being facetious.
I was trying to be. 

Yes, I agree with that basic premise, that the focus on endless growth and accumulation of more has to change. I, unfortunately don't see it happening peacefully or soon.


You and tweak live in the 2 countries in the world that has the best economies and you are still bitching that its not good enough.. there are many other countries that are envious and would trade their situtation for what your country does any day.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:21:49 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

In the end...revolution.


it aint gonna happen.. and a few riots isnt going to make it happen.. at best a few crumbs at election time.. and we know what happens with those..

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:23:05 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		It's becoming clearer and clearer that the cowboys of the international banking/finance system need to be made accountable for their irresponsible behaviour over the past decades.

Surrendering control of national economies to these snake oil salesmen, speculators and shysters has proved disastrous. Governments need to get together internationally to re-assert control over the banking system through sensible regulation, and internally to develop policies to ensure that all sectors benefit from the enormous wealth our societies produce.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/9/2011 1:25:32 AM >

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:24:11 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Just because things are working better here than most places doesn't mean that we can't recognize that things aren't working elsewhere. The fact that things are better here than elsewhere doesn't prevent me from recognizing a global failure of the economic system.

In fact, to my eye, if two people in well off countries can see that the system is inherently flawed, that speaks even more to the validity of that view. Remember, the accumulation of wealth is not only happening at the personal level, it is happening at the nation-state level as well.


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:25:01 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

In the end...revolution.


I, for one, think the hippies of the late 60's/early 70's had it right: make love, not war. And revolution is war.

I agree that changes need to be made, but I don't see the wealthy giving up their gains and I don't see those "without" giving up on their desire to have material wealth.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:26:17 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

In the end...revolution.


it aint gonna happen.. and a few riots isnt going to make it happen.. at best a few crumbs at election time.. and we know what happens with those..


My take on it wasn't that a revolution would happen from these riots, my take on his comment was that if the world doesn't change, there will be revolution.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:27:11 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Just because things are working better here than most places doesn't mean that we can't recognize that things aren't working elsewhere. The fact that things are better here than elsewhere doesn't prevent me from recognizing a global failure of the economic system.

In fact, to my eye, if two people in well off countries can see that the system is inherently flawed, that speaks even more to the validity of that view. Remember, the accumulation of wealth is not only happening at the personal level, it is happening at the nation-state level as well.


you can have whatever view you want, it doesnt make it valid. And being in a well off country makes you entirely impotent to affect change in any other place in the world.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:27:49 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I agree, i'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to hammer out exactly what needs to be done, but somehow, we have to find a way for everybody to live well. there is more than enough wealth available, it's just concentrated in too few hands.



Quick question...

When you say "more than enough wealth" would you be happy to see, say, a 50% reduction of your income in order to share the wealth more fairly? (And really, this isn't a trick question, and no I'm not going to disclose what my answer would be!).

The reason this question is interesting is that world-wide gdp per capita is between 8 and 9 thousand dollars a year. So anyone living in a country with a GDP per capita very significantly above 9k is likely to have to give up a very significant proportion of their wealth.





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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:28:55 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Its the aim of the agitators tj. I think that the hope in the present riots is to provoke an over reaction from the government, to get them to pass harsh laws to punish and prevent such outbreaks. This will in turn foster more anger and resentment, which will lead to more unrest, and more crack downs...and so on. It worked in South Africa, and to many of the disaffected poor, the perceived injustices are similar.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:29:53 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
And being in a well off country makes you entirely impotent to affect change in any other place in the world.


I feel the opposite is true. If a nation is well off, they have the sustainability to assist other nations. With the current global economic situation I would say there is no nation that has that kind of wealth.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/9/2011 1:30:51 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

And being in a well off country makes you entirely impotent to affect change in any other place in the world.
Kindly explain what you mean by that. I honestly don't understand it.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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