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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:09:47 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Ken, why do you do this?  You get called out for lying about what is said in a link, and you respond by escalating the rhetoric.  Your interpretation of what is endorsed, says far more about you, than it does about what the views the author has expressed.

Bullshit. Treasure is arguing violence against children isn't violence. This is very simple, the Pearls book advocates striking small children with a length of PVC 10 times every time the child does anything the parents disaprove of. How many times a day do you think that means kids being "trained" this way get hit? 100? 200? 300?

That sure as hell sounds like violent regular beatings to me.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:14:05 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Why argue this bullshit, when we could actually do something to promote some sanity? Freedom of speech... great... speak... but when we have these abuses taking place all around us and we say nothing but to defend freedom of speech... I have to say... fuck that.




Didn't you like my earlier suggestion, Lockit?

You have it backwards.  A horrible tragedy, but what shall we do promote some sanity?  The author of this thread thinks something needs to be done about the words that were written.  I have to say "fuck that." 

This extreme abuse under color of religion has been dealt within our justice system, and I suspect the inner workings of California's penal system will ensure the punishment suits the crime.  That's a critical difference worth noting, compared to places where the medieval visions of fundamentalist crazies are the law, instead of a kook fringe.


While I do believe you misunderstood me and have done a bit of twisting here... I will try to explain, but I won't go back and forth on it. I was answering your post when I got a call from my daughter about our little situation. I am tempering myself here, so may not be real clear.

I don't think freedom of speech needs to even come into this, personally speaking. However something needs to be done to protect those caught in situations that will do harm. I don't have the answers, but maybe you can help me with some.

I personally invite you to come to my home... to come to my daughters home and see her son cry because he found out daddy is coming to get him. To see him stunned and shell shocked when he comes home and the lost trust because no one is protecting him. To see all we are trying to do to fight this fucking right some have to spank/beat children even at the age of one with a stick. To research as we are trying to find anything that will help so that daddy's rights don't superceed the safety of four children. I invite you to join us in this battle and maybe together we can find something that doesn't take the fucking rights of someone.

Shall I expect a call from you?

Signed a stressed granny


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:22:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That sure as hell sounds like violent regular beatings to me.



"Sounds like to you," is exactly what I said, Ken.  Now you can crawl back behind the subjectivity of what is "violent," and what constitutes "regular," but it isn't going to change your twisting of this guy's theory of child development one bit.  He is not advocating what you say he is.  According to the article you linked to, he mentions 1/4 flexible tubing as a "real attention getter" for an older child, not the tool of choice for toddlers

Whether you like it or not, there is something to be said for a child learning not to reach out and grab things with the sting of a tiny switch, opposed to the burns a pot of boiling water might produce.



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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:22:48 PM   
Sanity


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You honestly see nothing wrong with going to an admittedly biased "expert" for "the facts"? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Part of being an expert is taking a position. Taking a position doesn't necessarily mean being biased.


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:31:03 PM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

3/4" PVC tubing
interesting. the quotes i read all said 1/4".

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:34:38 PM   
Ninebelowzero


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Status: offline 		You cannot alter a childs behaviour using anything other than gentle chastisement without the very real risk of some psychological damage whether immediate or later in life. also the code for behaviour is laid down by the age of 3 so if a parent is having 'issues' after that age it might be better to try a different tack. Oh & as for Lockit's concerned Granny comment. my heart goes out to you. My ex has learnt the hard way that her form of punishment doesn't cut it any more & now that fearful toddler dumped on my doorstep has a defiant glint in his eye. The kid is 7 & is already her physical & mental match when it comes to chastisement.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:52:07 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That sure as hell sounds like violent regular beatings to me.



"Sounds like to you," is exactly what I said, Ken.  Now you can crawl back behind the subjectivity of what is "violent," and what constitutes "regular," but it isn't going to change your twisting of this guy's theory of child development one bit.  He is not advocating what you say he is.  According to the article you linked to, he mentions 1/4 flexible tubing as a "real attention getter" for an older child, not the tool of choice for toddlers

Whether you like it or not, there is something to be said for a child learning not to reach out and grab things with the sting of a tiny switch, opposed to the burns a pot of boiling water might produce.



Nice attempt to back off your insulting lie.

I said small child not toddler. The terms are not equivalent.

There are 2 dead children and at least 2 sets of siblings scarred by parents following this book. I'm betting the reality is much higher.

Shockingly there are millions of people who learned not to grab a pot of boiling water without being hit by their parents in any way.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:52:12 PM   
Lockit


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Status: offline 		Heretic? Why am I being ignored? You were so quick to call me out... how about that visit to my house? You game? Or do you think its okay to hit kids as young as one with sticks?

It's real easy to be brave arguing free speech... I guess its another to speak for those that can't speak for themselves and need some of us to step up.


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:58:00 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That sure as hell sounds like violent regular beatings to me.

He is not advocating what you say he is.


Reality is things are happening just the way Ken suggest.  This is not the first child who has died or been injured.  There have been some changes in the write ups on the website since these incidents have happened.

The reason the pvc is used is because you can hit harder without leaving marks.

If you have never been involved or around the type of fundies who follow these ideas then you have no idea what your talking about. 


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 1:59:38 PM   
Ninebelowzero


Posts: 3134
Joined: 8/5/2011
Status: offline 		Being cynical I presume the non leaving of marks is so there is no proof in a court of law.
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That sure as hell sounds like violent regular beatings to me.

He is not advocating what you say he is.


Reality is things are happening just the way Ken suggest.  This is not the first child who has died or been injured.  There have been some changes in the write ups on the website since these incidents have happened.

The reason the pvc is used is because you can hit harder without leaving marks.

If you have never been involved or around the type of fundies who follow these ideas then you have no idea what your talking about. 



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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:04:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Shall I expect a call from you?




No, you shouldn't.  Child custody cases with allegations of any sort of abuse are something I personally stay well the hell away from, thank you very much.  I hope you find a resolution, and that your precious ones get the safety and security of a stable, loving home, but I'm not even dipping a discussional toe into something that isn't in my family, or that I'm witnessing myself.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:05:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So 10 strokes to a young child with a length of 3/4" PVC tubing every time the child isn't completely obedient isn't violent and regular? As a survivor of such abuse, my father prefered the garden hose since it didn't leave tell tale marks, I'll simply have to disagree. The 2 dead children would also tend to argue that the methods taught are not so good.


I was raised with the knowledge that "God" gave me a place to be spanked, and my father the perfect tool to spank with... his hand.  using anything else, in my opinion, is abuse.


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:09:47 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Shall I expect a call from you?




No, you shouldn't.  Child custody cases with allegations of any sort of abuse are something I personally stay well the hell away from, thank you very much.  I hope you find a resolution, and that your precious ones get the safety and security of a stable, loving home, but I'm not even dipping a discussional toe into something that isn't in my family, or that I'm witnessing myself.


LOL why does that not surprise me? You imply this is kind of a he said, she said thing. I offered you a front row seat... but no... you don't want to get involved. I guess that says it all. All talk and walk buddy. You will argue the right to talk... but you have little substance here. I can't even count on a no name (ours) email in support of laws against hitting very young children with sticks? Now that would be free speech in action wouldn't it?


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:09:51 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I have not read To Train Up a Child.  But I doubt very much that it states that children should be violently beaten regularly.



Did you watch the video?

The author himself states that.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:09:58 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero
Being cynical I presume the non leaving of marks is so there is no proof in a court of law.


Basically yes.  So no one notices the marks and calls you in.


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:12:05 PM   
Ninebelowzero


Posts: 3134
Joined: 8/5/2011
Status: offline 		Even a hand slap should not leave a mark on a small child.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

So 10 strokes to a young child with a length of 3/4" PVC tubing every time the child isn't completely obedient isn't violent and regular? As a survivor of such abuse, my father prefered the garden hose since it didn't leave tell tale marks, I'll simply have to disagree. The 2 dead children would also tend to argue that the methods taught are not so good.


I was raised with the knowledge that "God" gave me a place to be spanked, and my father the perfect tool to spank with... his hand.  using anything else, in my opinion, is abuse.



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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:12:49 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Never said a mark was left.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:14:13 PM   
Ninebelowzero


Posts: 3134
Joined: 8/5/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks, i know you didn't, I'm staggered at this story. Sorry.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Never said a mark was left.


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RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:18:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		My dad grew up in a time when it was considered abuse if the switch a child was hit with was bigger than the adults pinky.  Look at your pinky... that could be a very thick switch.  They leave welts, rip flesh and can cause infections.

I find it strange that a book would state that a child should be beat with a piece of pvc pipe because its what "god" wants.  PVC wasnt around then.

Sounds like a couple who got off on hurting others and used religion as the excuse to do so.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Ninebelowzero)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Spanked to death in the name of God? - 8/21/2011 2:19:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
If you have never been involved or around the type of fundies who follow these ideas then you have no idea what your talking about. 



I know them all too well, Flco.  The preferred tenet was along the lines of, "wickedness and deceit live within the heart of the child, but the rod of correction shall drive them far from him." (I know that is an amalgamation, not a specific verse.  So did they.)  That branch of the family turns out pretty much ok.  Even the alcoholics are the functional sort, and nobody has ever been hauled in by Child Protective Services.




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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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