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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/6/2011 11:23:26 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
I also always thought it was strange that Monsanto bought Xe, which was formerly Blackwater.



http://redgreenandblue.org/2010/10/16/too-much-of-a-bad-thing-monsanto-did-not-buy-blackwater/



Hmmm, that second article on that site about monsanto is interesting... so now there are Superweeds that round-up doesnt kill and they are getting more resistant... gee, who woulda thunk it..

And now there are half price knock offs of round up from china... just what the world needs.. and monsantos patents on some of their seeds is gonna be running out soon so guess there will be knocked off gmos too! Whoopee!
http://redgreenandblue.org/2010/10/17/be-nice-to-monsanto-theyre-having-a-very-bad-year/

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/6/2011 11:37:04 PM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I'm not saying I think GMO is safe or acceptable. I was pointing out an error. Are you aware that E. coli composes a large chunk of the bacteria in all of our gastrointestinal tracts? ;)

Yes, absolutely I am aware. I also know that when E. Coli, similarly to Staph or Strep get out of hand, they can be fatal. And I had the extreme pleasure of having MRSA staph in my face before, it nearly killed me.


As for the rest of the posting you made, if I may ask, what was the source? The green sentence above doesn't quite make sense. I think what they meant to say is that bacteria resistant to the antibiotic of those gene types inserted in the plant could cause disease(s) that don't respond to that particular antibiotic. Unfortunately hose types of organisms already exist due to inappropriate use of antibiotics that don't include GMO foods.

This came from The American Academy of Environmental Medicine website. I've seen very similar information all over the web...doing just a little digging in will show numerous sources of reference. I first became aware of the GMO dangers through Mercola.com and since I've applied a good deal of Dr. Mercola's advice much to my health benefit, (and yes, I'd be the first to say he is very commercial in many regards) I took his information and dug further.

And I think yes, the particular genes inserted would cause resistance to particular antibiotics...as I mentioned the MRSA staph I had, I'm already well aware about "Superbugs" but why do more things to worsen and already bad problem? Incidentally, I've had the best success in fighting anything bacterial with silver, yes like the metal. While some might scoff at it, silver is often applied to burn victims as an antimicrobial (silver sulfadiazine, silver nitrate).



Gets out of hand? No. It isn't that. It's the strain of the bacteria in question. Some strains are benign and others are not. I'm sorry to hear of your MRSA infection. This is one of the forms of bacteria that has become resistant to various antibiotics, as you well know.

As for your last paragraph, I was trying to say the statement you quoted did not convey the situation correctly.

The info about E. coli? Yes, I know. I've worked with it.

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/6/2011 11:44:34 PM   
tj444


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from that same site, guess round up does cause birth defects after all.. but of course monsanto already knew that..

http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/06/08/its-official-monsantos-roundup-herbicide-causes-birth-defects/

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 5:29:21 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Ok, this statement is just so wrong, it is impossible to ignore. One more time for the people who apparently never took genetics in their lives. There is a difference between selective breeding (which has happened for 1000s of years) and genetic modification. Selective breeding is breeding parents of plants or animals to enhanced positive characteristics and weed out undesirable ones. It is why we have dogs living in our houses and not wolves. Genetic modification is recombining dna, by introducing dna from another source. Here is a handy article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
Since they didn't know what the fuck DNA was until the turn of the 20th century, I think we can safely assume they weren't recombining it. Jesus, firmhand, usually you do better than that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ya'll know, don'tcha that every single major food crop that mankind cultivates has been "genetically modified" for hundreds of years?  As well as all food animals that we eat?

We just used "old technology".

Hell, Lager Beer is the result of an apparent natural genetic modification to beer yeast, several hundred years ago.

"Frankenfood" is almost all mankind has been eating for the past thousand years, at least.

And we just keep dying younger and younger, don't we?

Sweet,

Difference in procedure only, not in results or intent.

Plants and animals are modified through the manipulation of their basic genetic material, in order to increase resistance to disease, weather and predators.  Or to change the taste, yield or other characteristics.

Why is one method "bad" and the other "good"?

Because "God didn't intend us to do it that way"?

Much of the talk about "Frankenfood" seems to be more about Neo-Luddism, than anything else.

Firm


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 7:10:51 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Why is one method "bad" and the other "good"?

If I thought you were seriously interested, I would devote time to a serious response.

quote:

Because "God didn't intend us to do it that way"?

As far as I am concerned, God does not enter the equation.

quote:

Much of the talk about "Frankenfood" seems to be more about Neo-Luddism, than anything else.

I see it as not being susceptible to Toxic Sludge Is Good For You rather than Luddism.

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 7:53:37 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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RIiiggghhhttt. If you want to argue that introducing DNA from another species in a lab is the same as cross breeding or hybridization, I guess I can't stop you. Monsanto relies on people being ill informed, including the farmers they prey on. So ask yourself, why can hybrid seeds not be patented, but GMO seeds can?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Ok, this statement is just so wrong, it is impossible to ignore. One more time for the people who apparently never took genetics in their lives. There is a difference between selective breeding (which has happened for 1000s of years) and genetic modification. Selective breeding is breeding parents of plants or animals to enhanced positive characteristics and weed out undesirable ones. It is why we have dogs living in our houses and not wolves. Genetic modification is recombining dna, by introducing dna from another source. Here is a handy article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
Since they didn't know what the fuck DNA was until the turn of the 20th century, I think we can safely assume they weren't recombining it. Jesus, firmhand, usually you do better than that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ya'll know, don'tcha that every single major food crop that mankind cultivates has been "genetically modified" for hundreds of years?  As well as all food animals that we eat?

We just used "old technology".

Hell, Lager Beer is the result of an apparent natural genetic modification to beer yeast, several hundred years ago.

"Frankenfood" is almost all mankind has been eating for the past thousand years, at least.

And we just keep dying younger and younger, don't we?

Sweet,

Difference in procedure only, not in results or intent.

Plants and animals are modified through the manipulation of their basic genetic material, in order to increase resistance to disease, weather and predators.  Or to change the taste, yield or other characteristics.

Why is one method "bad" and the other "good"?

Because "God didn't intend us to do it that way"?

Much of the talk about "Frankenfood" seems to be more about Neo-Luddism, than anything else.

Firm



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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 7:57:01 AM   
DomYngBlk


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[quote]ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanako

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Do you really want to serve your family corn that is "Roundup Ready"? 


Why are you trying to appeal to emotion here? it sounds like you're opposed to this.

hmmm, well, that is what gmo from monsanto is, its roundup ready (so they can sell the farmer both their seed and their chemicals).. so its fact, not emotion..

If you want to take the chance then go ahead, some people would rather not tho.. and still others are opposed to the bully monsanto and its strong arm tactics and dont want to support them in any way. Having grown up on a small farm, i dislike monsanto with a passion...


And all this time I thought you were a free market capitalist........

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 7:59:12 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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Firm, I am kind of with Kalik. You comparison is so ludicrous, it is barely worth addressing. But ask yourself this. Why shouldn't GMO food be labeled as such? If you want to eat the shit, go for it. Why shouldn't I have the choice? And why should Monsanto lobby so heavily against labeling?

Another article about this fine company and their strong arm tactics.
Monsanto article


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 8:01:21 AM   
tj444


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Imo, if someone wants to drink raw milk then they should be able to but that product is labeled as such, so people have the choice and go into consuming that knowing there are certain risks.

But what monsanto (& their supporters) have done is take away everyones right to choose what products we can buy since thru their manipulation of the govt, its illegal to label their products as gmo. If they are so dam proud of the shit they produce then why dont they want it labeled as such? Cuz thats what companies do when they want to create a brand, you tell people this is my shit and if you like it then buy it. Just the fact that they have to hide their crap to the consuming public is telling, imo. I want to know what it is so i can assess the risks to consuming it myself, not have some corrupt corporation telling me that its the same when i feel both the genetic gene splicing has risks as well as dumping tons of chemicals on it has risks if consumed.

I also want the choice not to directly or indirectly support such a corrupt money hungry corporation.



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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 8:12:17 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

And all this time I thought you were a free market capitalist........


LOL

I believe people should have the right to choose what products they want to buy and to know what the risks are involved with that product. If someone wants to consume raw milk then they should have that choice, same goes for monsanto products, but they need to know its monsanto so that they also have the right to say no i dont want to buy and eat that crap. That is free market to me.

Just because i believe in capitalism doesnt mean that i support products that are dangerous, corruption, bribery, fake testing and outright lies, and manipulation of the govt and its own laws.. Get real. Being a capitalist doesnt mean i have to sell my soul, ya know.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/7/2011 8:16:25 AM >


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 8:30:59 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Pretty Canadian outlook on capitalism. Sorry the game isn't played like that down here

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 8:55:43 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Pretty Canadian outlook on capitalism. Sorry the game isn't played like that down here

Unfortunately monsanto (and mega corps like them) try playing that way everywhere else in the world. Even more unfortunate is that in some places they succeed.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/7/2011 8:56:05 AM >


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:05:05 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Just understand that you come from a place where those things are taken seriously. Be thankful that it is like that. It isn't like that here.

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:11:59 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Why is one method "bad" and the other "good"?

If I thought you were seriously interested, I would devote time to a serious response.

quote:

Because "God didn't intend us to do it that way"?

As far as I am concerned, God does not enter the equation.

quote:

Much of the talk about "Frankenfood" seems to be more about Neo-Luddism, than anything else.

I see it as not being susceptible to Toxic Sludge Is Good For You rather than Luddism.

So far, you have failed to make any scientific case against gene mod plants or animals.  All you have done is throw out fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD).

Your agenda is political, not scientific.

Firm


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:17:37 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Firm, I am kind of with Kalik. You comparison is so ludicrous, it is barely worth addressing. But ask yourself this. Why shouldn't GMO food be labeled as such? If you want to eat the shit, go for it. Why shouldn't I have the choice? And why should Monsanto lobby so heavily against labeling?

Another article about this fine company and their strong arm tactics.
Monsanto article

I'm not arguing or even engaging about Monsanto.

I'm talking about methods and technologies that increase food production.

As far as labeling, there is no reason that "organic" foods shouldn't be labeled as such, is there?  Won't that accomplish the same thing?

Not that I think "organic" foods should be required to be labeled.  The fact is, both terms ("organic" and "genmod" or "Frankenfood") really have no precise meaning or definition that makes any sense from a labeling perspective, but if it floats your boat, go for it.

Firm

PS.  You guys should read up on the Green Revolution.


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:26:01 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

RIiiggghhhttt. If you want to argue that introducing DNA from another species in a lab is the same as cross breeding or hybridization, I guess I can't stop you. Monsanto relies on people being ill informed, including the farmers they prey on. So ask yourself, why can hybrid seeds not be patented, but GMO seeds can?


What percent of their genes match yours?


Another human?     100% - All humans have the same genes, but some of these genes contain sequence differences that make each person unique.

A chimpanzee?     98% - Chimpanzees are the closest living species to humans.

A mouse?     92% - All mammals are quite similar genetically.

A fruit fly?     44% - Studies of fruit flies have shown how shared genes govern the growth and structure of both insects and mammals.

Yeast?     26% - Yeasts are single-celled organisms, but they have many housekeeping genes that are the same as the genes in humans, such as those that enable energy to be derived from the breakdown of sugars.
A weed (thale cress)?     18% - Plants have many metabolic differences from humans. For example, they use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide gas to sugars. But they also have similarities in their housekeeping genes.

Model organisms: The fruit fly

The relevance of the fruit fly to the human genome project reflects the remarkable conservation among genes in different animals. The fly genome, which was sequenced in the year 2001, is 165 million base pairs in length (spread over four chromosomes) and contains approximately 14 000 genes.

The human genome contains 3-4 times as many genes but most of these are thought to have arisen by two rounds of genome doubling during the evolution of vertebrates. Therefore, humans have more genes than flies but about the same number of gene families. Since it is easy to create mutants and carry out experiments on fruit flies, the functions of many fly genes have been established.

The relationship between fly and human genes is so close that the sequences of newly discovered human genes, including disease genes, can often be matched against their fly counterparts. This provides a lead towards the function of the human gene and could help in the development of effective drugs.

Why is moving a gene from one animal or plant to another animal or plant bad, wrong, or inherently dangerous to our health?

I think you guys need to learn a bit more about the things you are discussing.

Firm



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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:36:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

RIiiggghhhttt. If you want to argue that introducing DNA from another species in a lab is the same as cross breeding or hybridization, I guess I can't stop you. Monsanto relies on people being ill informed, including the farmers they prey on. So ask yourself, why can hybrid seeds not be patented, but GMO seeds can?

Hybridization is the mixing of genes from two different species or sub-species, creating a plant or animal which is a "genemod" organism.

The issue of patents is a legal issue, not a scientific one.

Firm


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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 9:44:58 AM   
DomYngBlk


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I think it has more to do with the reluctance to give our well being completely over to a bunch of Capitalists. Monsanto and others have not proved over the years to be good stewards of the people that not only work for them but also that live in their communities. The company that gave us Saccharin, Agent Orange and PCB's should be allowed to introduce Biogen'd seeds? Doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.

If the seeds produce roundup or a variant the effect on localized pollinators is going to be devastating. Obviously music to a company that not only promotes self pollinators but also pushes terminators......Effectively taking the food decisions out of the farmers hands and putting them in the hands of the Monsanto Company.

In theory Biogen'd seeds and plants are a godsend to a growing world population that can't feed itself. However, how this is rolled out and how this is govenerned needs to be sorted before we allow Companies sway on the very thing that keeps us alive...food.

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 10:05:07 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Ok, this statement is just so wrong, it is impossible to ignore. One more time for the people who apparently never took genetics in their lives. There is a difference between selective breeding (which has happened for 1000s of years) and genetic modification. Selective breeding is breeding parents of plants or animals to enhanced positive characteristics and weed out undesirable ones. It is why we have dogs living in our houses and not wolves. Genetic modification is recombining dna, by introducing dna from another source. Here is a handy article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
Since they didn't know what the fuck DNA was until the turn of the 20th century, I think we can safely assume they weren't recombining it. Jesus, firmhand, usually you do better than that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

Ya'll know, don'tcha that every single major food crop that mankind cultivates has been "genetically modified" for hundreds of years?  As well as all food animals that we eat?

We just used "old technology".

Hell, Lager Beer is the result of an apparent natural genetic modification to beer yeast, several hundred years ago.

"Frankenfood" is almost all mankind has been eating for the past thousand years, at least.

And we just keep dying younger and younger, don't we?

Firm



You're making me defend Firm and I hate that.

We've done a lot more than selectively breed crop plants. Hybridization has produced many of the crops we eat and that is genetic manipulation of crude sort. Wheat is a basic example, Durum is a hybrid of two grasses while bread wheat is a hybrid of 3 grasses.

Triticale is a hybrid of wheat and rye which was developed in the late 19th century by exposing wheat and rye germ material to colchicine. This was done decades before DNA was ever detected.

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RE: Monsanto launching bio engineered sweet corn - 9/7/2011 10:06:16 AM   
samboct


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HI Firm

I used to have your viewpoint on genetic modifications done in the lab these days- that it's nothing more than speeding up the previous methods of biology from selective breeding. However, a biologist pointed out that we can mix in genes from organisms that couldn't mix before. Viruses can insert themselves into organisms, but we're creating chimeras. Imagine a dog/mouse chimera-even if you used dog semen into a mouse, you wouldn't get anything. But now we can do such chimeras at the genetic level, so there is a question of safety, we haven't got millions of years of evolution blocking something that might be a no/no.

Overall though, it's not a threat that I worry about too much- but there is a different problem that's a concern. We're going increasingly to monocultures for our food supply, and monocultures have a problem that when an invading species figures out how to take them out, well, there's going to be nothing left to occupy their niche. Let's face it, these monoculture crops are one big inviting food source for a variety of organisms such as fungus, viruses, bacteria etc. In the bad old days, if one strain of wheat got wiped out by a blight, well, you planted something else. But Monsanto is trying to make sure that there really is nothing else- that everything out there is owned by them. I find this monoculture reliance problematic- especially with global climate change altering the environment. Seems to me that if you've got a half dozen strains of wheat, if the temperature does something funky- well, you've got a lot better chance of at least one of them surviving rather than a single strain.

I don't have a problem with labeling GMO stuff in theory, but in practice, I think the horse has already left the barn. However, I think that consumers do have a right to know what they're purchasing, especially if they want to vote with their dollars and buy something else. It's a democracy- people get to make their own choices- its not for us, even if we have a snazzy education, to say that we know what's good for you. People can waste their money buying vitamins too as well as a wide variety of plant extracts of dubious safety and utility.

PS_ I watched a few minutes of that "documentary" against Monsanto. Lots of errors- PCBs were never the jewel of their business, they were a diversified mfg. And most people thought that those oils were benign- some folks used to use them as a lotion. A lot of the compounds they make sound scary especially if you mispronounce aspartame, but they're really not. Most compounds aren't toxic. I'm not sure that Monsanto is much worse than a company such as GE, but I haven't looked that closely.

I do remember getting aggravated with this company back when I was in grad school when one of their folks gave a talk on their chemistry, and how they were being careful about what was going into the environment. Since I did a lot of NMR spectroscopy and was looking for a job, I asked about the fate of some of the breakdown products. They hadn't bothered to characterize them or do any tox studies. I offered.... But if I held a grudge against every company that didn't offer me a job, well, it'd be a short list of companies I could buy from.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/7/2011 10:07:11 AM >

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