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RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:09:38 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I have no idea where you are coming from Celeste; my first post was said in the same vein as my second... with absolute wonderment at the convictions in which this user has posted.

Kindly, do not select the color of my kettle. I have not given you reason or right to do so.

::shrugs:: I call it like I see it. Don't like it, don't post to a public board which allows others to voice their opinions on your words. I absolutely have the 'right' to do so. My opinion, your first post was rude and negative on this new concept.. and then you turned around accusing Jude of exactly what you had just done.

Pot, kettle, black.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 21

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:10:23 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

I get the notion of it being more presentable, more engaging. We live in an age of entertainment rather than Enlightenment. People have short attention spans and if it isn't fun and entertaining they have little patience with it.

And that's part of my problem with the whole concept. Follow me on this a moment.

I take being dominant seriously, enough to want to be my personal best. To that end I've done my best to educate myself using a variety of sources. I've talked with more experienced dominants and submissives over the years. I've read a wide range of literature within the lifestyle. I've read broadly in psychology and particularly in applied behavioral psychology. I've written my own essays on the lifestyle, most of which began as a personal exercise in examining various aspects of it, a way to help me understand things better by examining them and to put my thoughts down on paper. I've put a lot of effort into it because its important to me. I've done my best to base everything I learn on either direct experience or credible sources of information... but all of it based firmly in reality.

Now I'm presented with people who come to this lifestyle basing what they know on a work of fiction (take your pick there are several varieties around). I am confronted with people who passionately argue that slaves should be thus and thus... and masters should do thus and thus... because a fiction book said so. And what's worse they genuinely believe what they are saying... as though it has never occured to them that their idea, the concept they are espousing was based not in reality but in fiction. And even when confronted with someone like myself, someone grounded firmly in reality and direct experience... they cling to that fictional book like it was their personal bible.

No not all are that bad... but I doubt there is a person who reads this who doesn't know and probably has personally encountered the type I speak of. I wonder about the sanity of it. Of someone weilding a whip based on what they read in a fictional story, punishing someone else because that person didn't adhere to a fictional ideal (which may or may not be entirely impractical). Gor has often been the target of criticisim for this very reason... that at its root, its based on fiction and that leaves so much of it suspect. Even in regards to those "Goreans" who have long since dismissed much of that fiction themselves and turned to reality for practical ideas, lessons and concepts (which makes you wonder if they can still be considered Goreans). Any other such group is going to face the exact same criticism, in perpetutity for exactly the same reasons... so why set yourselfs of for it?

It does leave me wondering, if the idea is so popular then perhaps there is merit for a work of fiction based on real life BDSM practices, real behavioral psychology, real models of D/s and M/s relationships in the modern world. I do get some of the appeal of Gor and other "societies" like it. As you say, behaviors are defined, roles are defined, its all very predefined and outlined and structured. That can certainly be attractive to someone trying to figure out "okay, so I'm a dom, what in hell do I do now?"

If I sound critical, even a bit contemptuous (and I'm really making an effort not to, this is not any sort of attack, just honest commentary), its because with all the effort I've put into getting to where I am today in this lifestyle, its a bit hard for me to accept someone who claims to be a "Master" modelled on something the read in a work of complete fiction that was never based on or in this lifestyle to begin with. And when that person purports their knowledge of a series of books to somehow be equivalent to the years I've spent gaining direct experience, the long hours reading Skinner, Adler, Maslow, Festenger, Branden, Miltenberger, etc... you'll pardon me if I have trouble taking them seriously. And theres a point to be made in that, about the ongoing "conflict", friction and mistrust between "BDSMers" and "Goreans" as to why exactly that conflict exists. Now I'm getting visions of yet another such conflict, and probably a three way as BDSMers, Goreans and Klashaans all square off in their respective corners.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MistressJude)

Post #: 22

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:11:48 PM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

One might say the very same thing about any book of faith.. .there certainly are many works of fiction and fantasy in just about every book of religion with a creationist theory that I have ever studied.

I do say the same about books of faith, as I am not one who believes in those things.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 23

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:13:35 PM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressJude

To those who are reading this thread and who feel compelled to get your comments in. Please note that this is not posted to invite opinions, debates, arguments, or flames. It was posted to inform people of a new group being formed based on a SPECIFIC lifestyle. If you do not believe in, condone, approve of, or even just don't like this type of lifestyle then don't interact on this thread. Don't come to list. Don't come to the meetings. Don't read the book. This post was made so that people who ARE interested can express that interest so they can be instructed further. The only thing this thread is doing now is scaring off anyone who might be interested for fear they might be belittled or condemned. So please bite your tongue (or fingers as it is) and show some self restraint. Fine, you don't like Gor. You don't like Klashaan. You don't like anything fictional. Then get off the thread and leave it at that. Start your own thread where you can bash all you want.

This is a forum environment, Jude. Therefore, many of us will and do leave our commentary, based on our thoughts, opinions, and ideas. If you were looking to merely inform people about your proposal, you might try making a profile about it or posting an ad in your local BDSM publications.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to MistressJude)

Post #: 24

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:19:30 PM

MistressJude

Posts: 89
Joined: 1/8/2005
From: NC
Status: offline

I currently lead my kinky life without a manual. My vanilla one too. The Gor novels offer a code of conduct, rules of behavior woven into a fantastical tale that takes place on another world. People have widdled away the excess and made their own 'manuals' of how to live like a Gorean in the earth world we have. Loki took a vision he had and created an entire world/culture around it in a similar way Norman did. Miss Abernathy made a slave training book. Pat Califia writes books to help people learn about the do's and dont's of kinky play - in essence, a manual. They're all over the place, it just depends if you want to read it or not. If you do read it then you take whatever you want from it. Maybe just a tiny excerpt - a one-liner struck a cord with you so you carry it around. Maybe you love Abernathy's training book and use several chapters for your own purposes. Maybe you're in love with Pat and every word of her books are words you live by. To each their own - whether it's from a book or not. I don't need a manual, and I'm not saying anyone else does either. The point of the group is that someone developed a kind of BDSM that I feel is something I would like to engage in, as a dominant. In turn I'm offering those who might feel like I do a chance to explore this new thing. It's an opportunity for people to embrace a community group while learning safe play when dealing with an aspect of bdsm that is on the more extreme side of things.

_____________________________

Sir Jude
*Don't be afraid to go out on a limb... that's where all the fruit is*
**The best way to make a dream come true is to wake up**

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 25

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:20:31 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressJude

To those who are reading this thread and who feel compelled to get your comments in. Please note that this is not posted to invite opinions, debates, arguments, or flames. It was posted to inform people of a new group being formed based on a SPECIFIC lifestyle.

Hate to burst your bubble on this, but take a look around at where you are posting. Its a public forum where people regularly debate just about everything. If you expected to post this and not have it debated, you had some very unrealistic expectations. And just because you don't like some of the opinions expressed doesn't mean the rest of us should censor ourselves. I'll agree in sofar as the opinions should not turn into flames and personal attacks. But honest criticism, commentary and discussion is fair game, even desirable.

Consider this a moment. This society you are proposing... is it going to exist in a vacuum? Of course not, so if it can't stand up to a bit of criticism now how do you expect it to survive later? What's more, some of the criticism may raise very valid points, things that if you are serious about this could be addressed and corrected in the early stages before it becomes a much more serious and difficult to correct problem later.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MistressJude)

Post #: 26

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:22:40 PM

Wulfchyld

Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Now I'm presented with people who come to this lifestyle basing what they know on a work of fiction (take your pick there are several varieties around).

Padriag, there lies the fault. Now you would have sounded a great deal more reasonable if your profile hadn’t betrayed you.

This is not a neo-pets board and Jude isn’t trolling for newbie’s. She is looking for BDSM people that have an interest in a structured M/S lifestyle. If it is not your bag, cool, move on. Before you continue to throw the stones you may wish to edit out the repetitive like of role-play from your profile.

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 27

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:23:21 PM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

. Don't like it, don't post to a public board which allows others to voice their opinions on your words. I absolutely have the 'right' to do so.

Which is exactly what I did... you are the only one entitled to an opinion? The OP was not made by me. Take a look beyond this board Celeste.... I have had similar differences on the Gorean boards with people who are willing to cast all BDSM'ers with one brush stroke...

Jude went on to clarify that she made a poor choice of words in castigating all Goreans. I can respect that. That was my beef.

Hop off my kettle Celeste and find someone else to paint a color you approve of.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 28

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:23:52 PM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

If I sound critical, even a bit contemptuous (and I'm really making an effort not to, this is not any sort of attack, just honest commentary), its because with all the effort I've put into getting to where I am today in this lifestyle, its a bit hard for me to accept someone who claims to be a "Master" modelled on something the read in a work of complete fiction that was never based on or in this lifestyle to begin with. And when that person purports their knowledge of a series of books to somehow be equivalent to the years I've spent gaining direct experience, the long hours reading Skinner, Adler, Maslow, Festenger, Branden, Miltenberger, etc... you'll pardon me if I have trouble taking them seriously.

To take what Padriag said and put it simply(which was so eloquent and which I completely agree with), it's similar to saying that watching 10 seasons of ER makes you a doctor or reading the six Harry Potter books with vigor makes you a wizard.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 29

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:29:27 PM

MistressJude

Posts: 89
Joined: 1/8/2005
From: NC
Status: offline

I understand your concern and have, at times, felt similarly. I would like to point out that the group is meant to engage in lessons. To teach people - dom and sub - safe practices. I was reviewing Loki's book and found a design for whipping that I was concerned with. I felt it was unsafe and any newcomer seeing it would like it's okay to send a whip cracking up someone's spine not realizing that they could easily chip bones and cause serious damage. It was a minor thing in the grand scheme of the book and it was only because of being slightly off in the graphics - but it's these very things I want people who attend the group to realize. Just because on Gor you can use a cattle prod on a slave doesn't mean you can in reality. If you strick a person with voltage near the heart or neck you could cause extreme problems - even death. Someone who just comes at it like a cool book to reenact is in trouble. Thus the group for klashaan - a real meeting group to teach many of the essentials already established in the BDSM lifestyle, just in a different style.

I take what you're saying to heart but I must ask - have you read any of Loki's klashaan work? Do you know if it's completely fictional? Do you know if it's a great BDSM manual? Do you know if it's a great pile of crap? By all means share your concerns but I ask that people (in general) here not completely trash something they haven't even read.
I am confronted with people who passionately argue that slaves should be thus and thus... and masters should do thus and thus...

_____________________________

Sir Jude
*Don't be afraid to go out on a limb... that's where all the fruit is*
**The best way to make a dream come true is to wake up**

(in reply to MistressJude)

Post #: 30

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:29:30 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

*taps cane on side of chair................clears throat.............*........Maistro?

Koooooom- biiiiiii-ya............Koooooooom-biiiiiii-yaaaa........

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 31

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:30:18 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Which is exactly what I did... you are the only one entitled to an opinion? The OP was not made by me. Take a look beyond this board Celeste.... I have had similar differences on the Gorean boards with people who are willing to cast all BDSM'ers with one brush stroke...

Guess it's ok as long as you're the one who's doing it. I got ya. Point made. Nuff said.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 32

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:31:18 PM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

hahahaha Level! You are too good.

No worries, I have relegated my soap box to the back shed for a better day :)

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 33

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:32:25 PM

Wulfchyld

Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline

Lol, Level... you are a mess.

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 34

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:33:05 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

(in reply to Wulfchyld)

Post #: 35

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:33:17 PM

MistressJude

Posts: 89
Joined: 1/8/2005
From: NC
Status: offline

'so long as no one is getting hurt, have fun doing whatever you like. '

So why not let me do whatever I like?

_____________________________

Sir Jude
*Don't be afraid to go out on a limb... that's where all the fruit is*
**The best way to make a dream come true is to wake up**

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 36

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:35:13 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressJude

'so long as no one is getting hurt, have fun doing whatever you like. '

So why not let me do whatever I like?

Cause I'm bossy lol.....

(in reply to MistressJude)

Post #: 37

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:36:15 PM

ravn

Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Maybe I should just write my own series of books.

then You would truly be no better than those You seem to despise..or is this girl not comprehending English?

_____________________________

Masochism is a valuable job skill.
Chuck Palahniuk
Love is a sweet tyranny, because the lover endureth his torments willingly.
~Proverb ( bring on the tyranny!)

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 38

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:38:05 PM

MistressJude

Posts: 89
Joined: 1/8/2005
From: NC
Status: offline

Thanks for the break in the tension level. With that I'm going to bed. I will look forward to reading any new posts tomorrow. I do enjoy a good debate - keeps the blood pumping. Unfortunately I already lost enough blood today so I'm done for now. Til tomorrow.

_____________________________

Sir Jude
*Don't be afraid to go out on a limb... that's where all the fruit is*
**The best way to make a dream come true is to wake up**

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 39

RE: Like Gor? Love Klashaan! - 5/21/2006 7:38:37 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

Now with all due respect I didn’t sell MistressJude on this. I offered her a copy of my book, as I have done with a few others from this site. That said, I would say MistressJude found something in the books that inspired her to present this to you, the community. Padriag, your kink is not my kink and that is okay. Everyone here is indulging in their own fantasies; we as a community have the courage to make our fantasies into reality. Whether it is fantasizing what you are going to do with that new eggbeater or what you are going to do with that new whip, it is still fantasy we are making into reality.

Well that at least answers one question, who wrote it. I hadn't heard of this book or books so I tried Googling it of course and checking with B&N and came up with nothing. So I'm assuming you haven't published. That said, let me split my remarks.

First, my compliments on taking the time and effort to write a book at all. As an author I can appreciate the investment on your part that represents. I'd encourage you to try having it published. There are so many options these days and so many publishers you might be surprised at how easy it is. You made the effort, you might as well see if you can earn something from it. Publishing electronically is the easiest way to go and if you want I can probably recommend an electronic publisher that handles erotic literature.

That said... while I can admire the effort, and I might even enjoy the fiction, its using it as a basis for a lifestyle I'm critical of. I think I covered that fairly well in a previous post so I won't rehash it. Given that you are a dominant in the lifestyle I'm a little less skeptical about it, but even still, it just strikes me as being a very... irrational, thing to do.

And you are right, there is something of making fantasies into reality in all of what we do. But my point is how we go about it. To me, its one thing to take the idea of say... owning another person as a slave within the context of a relationship, and then finding a way in the real world to make that a practical and functional reality; versus taking a work of fiction and then creating a fictional society based on it which to me sounds like moving further away from reality, rather than closer to it. That's been one of my long standing criticims about Gor... and no it isn't true of all Goreans, but there are those who literally do live completely in a fantasy world. And its not surprising considering Gor began as a fantasy world, it is simply going to attract that element to it. I would predict Klashaan would face a similar problem if it were to be made into a society like Gor has. Now if that problem can somehow be addressed early on... that would be interesting to see.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Wulfchyld)

Post #: 40

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