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1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?" - 9/11/2011 11:51:26 AM

TheHeretic

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I was in the fifth grade, the first time I picked up George Orwell's 1984. It scared the hell out me, and has managed to do that every time I've picked it up since. Just scanning through the opening chapters, and looking for the snip below creeped me out.

(For anyone who has never read the novel, it is out of copyright, and available to read free, online.
http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/0.html )

As Winston Smith goes about his job in the Ministry of Truth, correcting and updating the past, Orwell asks a little suspension of disbelief from his readers. Every hard copy, everywhere, must be tracked down and replaced?

quote:

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the pneumatic tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.

As I think most people would have done, I rationalized that there would be a lot fewer people who saved pamphlets, or lived in homes surrounded by books, gave him the leap on "how" it was done, and let the horror of "what" was being done have its impact

In the age we live in though, with the developments coming into play, and all the records going to electronic storage, do you think this aspect of Orwell's nightmare vision might soon become possible? Forget the pneumatic tubes and printing presses, substitute "he completed his upload, and pressed 'submit' to send the corrective cloud crawler program in its way."

This subject could easily attract the attentions of more conspiracy minded posters, who might say it's already here. I hope that won't scare off the rational.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:05:26 PM

DarkSteven

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It cannot happen in THAT sense now. With the Internet, there's just too much out there.

BUT.... there is an abundance of misinformation out there. In Smith's world, the stuff in print was 100% correct and he replaced it 100% with total falsehoods. Nowadays, the lies are pushed out without addressing the truths. And it all makes a mishmosh in which diehard conservatives and diehard liberals both can find sources that cater to them.

We're just entering an age where disinformation is deliberately disseminated online.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:24:25 PM

Fellow

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I see inevitable attempt by the governments to restrain alternative media coming soon. It is getting too powerful. The government-controlled mainstream media is in trouble. Suppression of the unpleasant information becomes increasingly difficult. How they will try it is a guess. I expect some kind of "cyber 9/11" type approach.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:26:02 PM

TheHeretic

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That's along my lines of thought, Steve. The best protection is to just have too many sources, too much information, and turn the tools into teacups against the tide.

Where you see the internet as providing the daily tsumani of information, I think of how the internet might somehow provide centralized access to all of it.

That's an interesting idea about disinformation. Instead of everything one can find being "true," anything that could be come up with is easily dismissed as a lie.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:28:59 PM

tolovetolaugh

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You see governments already attacking wikileaks. I don't think hiding the truth can be very easy with the way technology is- people save important articles to their computers, and sometimes print them out.

Edited to add:
If you liked 1984, the book Hunger Games is a mix between 1984 and The Long Walk. Great read- they are making a movie of it in a year or so.

< Message edited by tolovetolaugh -- 9/11/2011 1:27:08 PM >

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:37:35 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

In the age we live in though, with the developments coming into play, and all the records going to electronic storage, do you think this aspect of Orwell's nightmare vision might soon become possible?

No. Too many people save cached versions of the original sources on their computers, precisely because they've seen things change or become unavailable. History isn't centralized enough right now, and too many smart geeks know how to protect their archives.

Start to worry when we become unable to.

K.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 12:42:22 PM

Lucylastic

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I read the book when I was 12, animal farm and 1984... so that would make it 1974(gawwd I feel old) and by 1976 I knew we were just pawns.
my distrust never left
However by 1984... I knew that "private enterprise" could not be trusted (anymore than the government) to look after anyone but themselves and their shareholders between thatcherism and reaganism and stock brokers and the money market booming..Any scales covering my eyes had gone.
here in 2011... its been festering for so long, but ignored or denied, its even more entrenched and is unavoidable.
The actual interpretations of the book are to me neither here nor there. I dont see anything to change my mind and I have looked.
Truth and Trust? in big companies, non existant, in the government?well thats obvious.

Opps got carrried away, with regards to the internet, with many hackers and Govmnts even reg joes being able to hack, trace, follow and delve into your every move? nah its already there.
however, I cant say it bothers me, lifes too short to wrap yourself up in padding n hide. altho I can see why some are more paranoid than others
:)

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 9/11/2011 12:49:38 PM >

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 1:01:58 PM

Sanity

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Reading 1984 as a young man is a large part of why I am a conservative today. The Orwellian phenomenon waxes and wanes throughout history, and its my opinion that George Orwell was writing from his keen observation of history and historical trends during his own time.

At times through the ages things like book burnings and the torture and execution of heretics is commonplace, other times freedom of speech and expression, and learnedness in general is cherished.

Ideally (to me at least) no matter the subject, knowledge itself is a prize.

But in todays society we seem to be sliding in the wrong direction. Look at the angry, almost riotous push against the likes of George W. Bush, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, the calls for reviving the "Fairness Doctrine" (theres an Orwellian term for you), and the blatant attempts to rewrite the history of the Reagan revolution. Colleges and universities are becoming places extremely hostile to any ideas that run counter to the far lefts dreams of creating a communist la la land, in a way almost reminiscent to the fall of Saigon

The battle for access to varying viewpoints, to control information and history literature and the effort to censor speakers and ideas seems to be expanding, and there are hundreds of avenues that these battles take.

Obamacare dictates that everyones complete medical history go into the megatron computer for example. Social Security gives everyone their number, banking information is becoming highly centralized, facial recognition technology combined with cameras everywhere are fast becoming a reality, and these things are all trending towards being merged together so that there will be no hiding in the future for any rebel of any kind at all.

One bright spot is the Internet and cable TV, though leftists do sometimes make noises about bringing those under government (read "leftist") control. Without these new media sources we would be very limited in the news coverage, and still probably believe as a groupthink society every word Dan Rather ever breathed to us.

But again, even this bright spot for those brave souls who dare to think differently is facing challenges. Things may get really ugly in the near future too, gauging by the trends, as the battles go on.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/11/2011 1:05:04 PM >

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 1:09:44 PM

Sanity

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In places like Saddams Iraq, the Soviet Union and North Korea, to a lesser extent China, control is absolute through various means and am I mistaken, or hasnt Google been working with the Chinese government to help make sure search results there return only politically correct information.

Why cant that kind of totalitarian control come into power here. Gradually, over time.

"For the good of the children"

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's along my lines of thought, Steve. The best protection is to just have too many sources, too much information, and turn the tools into teacups against the tide.

Where you see the internet as providing the daily tsumani of information, I think of how the internet might somehow provide centralized access to all of it.

That's an interesting idea about disinformation. Instead of everything one can find being "true," anything that could be come up with is easily dismissed as a lie.

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 1:31:40 PM

TheHeretic

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Playing with the potential results from the search engines is one those creepy little things, Sanity.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 10

RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 4:29:10 PM

Owner59

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"I was in the fifth grade, the first time I picked up George Orwell's 1984."

And haven`t been able to let it go since then....

"It scared the hell out me"

Again,some things never change.

You`re still very frightened and frighting.

You seem to see things Orwellian everywhere and bent on saving us from it.

Question,who`s going to save us from the kooks like yourself after you`ve saved us from the thought-police?

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 4:42:57 PM

Lucylastic

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Thing is, he doesnt see it where it actually IS

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 4:49:17 PM

Sanity

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The saying, "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" comes to mind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"I was in the fifth grade, the first time I picked up George Orwell's 1984."

And haven`t been able to let it go since then....

"It scared the hell out me"

Again,some things never change.

You`re still very frightened and frighting.

You seem to see things Orwellian everywhere and bent on saving us from it.

Question,who`s going to save us from the kooks like yourself after you`ve saved us from the thought-police?

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:08:39 PM

Owner59

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I guess you and dick would be in the Ministry Of Fear.

That`s basically how your party operates.

Ya know,the phrase "drinking the kool-aid" came from when you bushies didn`t seem to get that Iraq was FUBAR but still wanted to get our GI`s killed there,year after year,for nothing.

Now the kool-aid comes in a "forget the cons ruined the economy" flavor.

Haven`t you cons been trying to shirk that fuck-up with continual denials since it happened?

Talk about thought control......straight out of the Ministry of Thruth.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/11/2011 5:09:22 PM >

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:43:49 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Thing is, he doesnt see it where it actually IS

But I do, Lucy. The corruption of power and the urge towards totalitarianism don't know any boundaries of party. This isn't in any way a partisan sort of subject.

Which of course, makes it completely flipping hilarious that Homophobe59 is trying to participate, after reading a little Wiki, and leaping to some conclusions.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:45:42 PM

Owner59

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Care to give us some examples of democrat totalitarianism ?

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:48:04 PM

Lucylastic

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Rich.. I was talking about the response to Sanity, Not towards you, while I often disagree with you dear chap, you explained your view... I dont have you on ignore.. I stil have an interest in what you say, most of the time:)

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:53:46 PM

TheHeretic

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I'd ask what part of "non-partisan" you don't understand, Homophobe59, but there isn't any part of it you get to begin with.

Maybe try reading the book. Or the much simpler one I gave you a link to a few days ago.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 5:54:04 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Care to give us some examples of democrat totalitarianism ?

the SS non Ponzi scheme?

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RE: 1984: Do we have the technology for "truth?&q... - 9/11/2011 6:07:33 PM

Montana32DDD

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Global Warming = Democrat Totalitarianism
Environmentalism = Democrat Totalitarianism
High Taxes, High Regulation = Democrat Totalitarianism
Government programs that reward the unsuccessful paid for by the successful = Democrat Totalitarianism
National Single Payer Health Care = The Ultimate in left wing Democrat Totalitarianism coming soon
Population Control - Choosing who gets to breed (Conservatives need not apply) = Democrat Totalitarianism
Democrat Response to anyone who does not agree with them = Democrat Totalitarianism
787 Billion Dollar Stimulus program resultingi n 25 million unemployed = Democrat Totalitarianism
Public Education/Labor Unions = Democrat Totalitarianism (Or do you support a tax funded army of Conservative supporters in all fifty states courtesy of Uncle Sam? No? Hypocrisy thy name IS Democrat.)
New York City - Highest Taxes, Highest Regulations, Rated most Authoritarian City in the World. - BBC
Frankly, from where I sit, I am surprised we still have democrats, let along anyone who is silly enough to defend their failed and flawed policies.

To easy.

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