RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid

RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 8:07:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or One quick question, how come it was OK to attack or accost them in international waters ? I thought those were international waters. If the UN was so anti-Israel, why did they condone this ? T^T Sorry, I didnt see this until it was quoted later. It's ok because maritime law doesnt prohibit it, regardless of it being international waters: San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture Israel had the right to ATTACK, not just board/detain because the expressed intent of the flotilla was to breach the blockade and they refused to stop

Aylee -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 8:10:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or One quick question, how come it was OK to attack or accost them in international waters ? I thought those were international waters. If the UN was so anti-Israel, why did they condone this ? T^T Sorry, I didnt see this until it was quoted later. It's ok because maritime law doesnt prohibit it, regardless of it being international waters: San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture I heard about a ship like that once. The RMS Lusitania, I think it was called.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 8:17:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or One quick question, how come it was OK to attack or accost them in international waters ? I thought those were international waters. If the UN was so anti-Israel, why did they condone this ? T^T Sorry, I didnt see this until it was quoted later. It's ok because maritime law doesnt prohibit it, regardless of it being international waters: San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture I heard about a ship like that once. The RMS Lusitania, I think it was called. Maritime law has changed a lot since then, but there is still considerable disagreement about whether the Lusitania was a legitimage military target. Under today's maritime law I think its hard to argue that she wasnt a legit target.

Termyn8or -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 8:19:31 PM)
"The RMS Lusitania" Touche' T^T

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 8:58:09 PM)
The $64 question: Will Willbur's next foray into international law result in him producing some obscure clause which he will use to justify the IDF shooting US citizens 5 times in the back ? Watch this space for the next contribution from the multi-talented troll - medic, war hero, single handed saviour of the US economy, self-described multi-millionaire, known insurance peddler and now expert on international maritime law ... the list goes on. (Well according to his own account anyways. Some scepticism may be in order) Best wishes for your therapy Willbur darling!

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/18/2011 9:05:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The $64 question: Will Willbur's next foray into international law result in him producing some obscure clause which he will use to justify the IDF shooting US citizens 5 times in the back ? Watch this space for the next contribution from the multi-talented troll - medic, war hero, single handed saviour of the US economy, self-described multi-millionaire, known insurance peddler and now expert on international maritime law ... the list goes on. (Well according to his own account anyways. Some scepticism may be in order) Best wishes for your therapy Willbur darling! The $1 million question...will you ever post anything with content or are you just going to join the other girls in the View?

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 4:17:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sinequanon22 DomKen said: quote: They didn't start a war. They simply enfored their absolute inviolable right to control their own frontier. Technically the Turkish vessels could have been sunk after the initial order to heave to and proceed to an inspection port was ignored. You realize that Israel raided the flotilla (and killed 9 people, some with execution-style shots to the head and chest at point-blank range), in international waters. There's a reason this story gets the play time. It is, by far, not the first boarding of a ship bound for Palestine, nor the first boarding that occurred in international waters. March 15, 2011 Israel boarded the Victoria, 200 miles out in international waters. The ship originated from Syria, stopped in Turkey before heading south to Egypt. Details here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/15/AR2011031501303.html Note in the same article The operation was reminiscent of the November 2009 Israeli takeover of the Iranian Francop vessel off the coast of Cyprus. Israel captured hundreds of tons of rockets, missiles, mortars, grenades and anti-tank weapons on board which it said were headed to Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon. In May 2001 off its coast, Israel captured the vessel Santorini, packed with explosives that Israel said were sent from Hezbollah to Palestinian militant groups. In January 2002, Israeli forces stormed the Karine A freighter on the Red Sea, and confiscated what the military said was 50 tons of missiles, mortars, rifles and ammunition headed for Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip. From the charts, it looks as if the flotilla raid occurred between 50 and 75 miles off the coast of Gaza. Initial contact with the ships occurred earlier about the same distance off the coast of Israel. There are several legal definitions of "waters" with the most bandied being International Waters. There are also internal waters, contiguous zones, continental shelf claims, territorial seas, and exclusive economic zones. Exclusive economic zones extend up to 200 miles off the coast, and give the nation rights to control all economic activity within those waters. Too, passage by the coast of any given country is considered free and innocent as long as the conditions of the convention are kept as in: Article 19(2) of the convention provides for some exceptions with regard to innocent passage. Passage is innocent so long as it is prejudicial to peace, good order or security of the coastal state. In other words, the activity of the vessel exercising the right of innocent passage should not pose a serious and unacceptable threat to the coastal state. The flotilla gets it's play time from one simple fact. A group of activists attacked the boarding party, throwing initial members down several decks, stabbing and abducting others. The IDF initially carried paintguns, but after the attack requested and received permission to use live rounds. As a former member of a boarding party, I can attest to the fact that if your ship is boarded and you provide harmful resistance, your ass will be shot. There's no excuse for the executioner type of slaying attributed to one of the activists, but the raid was escalated by the activists after a long history of ships bringing weapons in the area.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 6:04:08 AM)
quote: As a former member of a boarding party, I can attest to the fact that if your ship is boarded and you provide harmful resistance, your ass will be shot. There's no excuse for the executioner type of slaying attributed to one of the activists, but the raid was escalated by the activists after a long history of ships bringing weapons in the area. You're right. There "is no excuse for the executioner type of slaying attributed to one of the activists". Plain murder in any one's language. So why are you attempting to offer one?

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 6:29:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So why are you attempting to offer one? Where did I offer one? The situation occurred because of the actions of the activists, not vice-versa. They came with the express purpose of breaking the blockade, passed through disputed waters, ignored repeated attempts to dock for inspection, and one of the five vessels chose violent resistance during which they attacked, stabbed, mobbed and beat security forces. Executing one of them is indefensible. So is attacking the boarding party. Both sides are at fault. The IDF should respond to the charges of execution and charge the soldier or soldiers responsible with murder. They should also have imprisoned the activists and charged them en masse with attempted murder. Placing blame on the IDF for the incident however, ignores both the history of arms shipments to the area, the fact that you are operating in war time waters, and violating a blockade. And then you choose to exercise a violent response and expect what? I subdued my share of activists when I was in the military. That included blowing some off the sides of ships with water cannons, chaining others to the deck, and chasing down those that ran. We never ran into armed resistance on a ship. If we had, I'd have had no issue with using deadly force. You're there to do a job. That job is to protect your country. Want to go after the soldier or soldiers who executed the activist? Fine. I'll go with you. But if you're looking for blame for the incident, don't look much further than the activists themselves.

ashjor911 -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 6:51:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The UN didnt exist when Israel was "invented". In fact the UN REDUCED Israel's already existing State. Far from "inventing" it. But why let facts get in the way. And you still havent said who "my people" are. You get no further response till you do. Intellectual dishonsty is no more forgivable than bigotry. The UN was Invented after WW II, 1945, give it one year to build the bulding give or take lets say 1947 Israel Was Invented in 1948.... do your math.. your People who are supportive to Israel, are : Zionest = Israelies both of them are the same, not jews... not assumes that I SAID SOMETHING. I DID NOT SAY. Israel have some christians, from US who want to live there, i am not saying its wrong but if they supportive than they are Zionest, who have blood on their hands. let me dig down a littile deep for you, http://www.wanted.org.il/ HAVE A DAMN DRINK WITH THAT.... ENJOY

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 7:23:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So why are you attempting to offer one? Where did I offer one? Right here: quote: The situation occurred because of the actions of the activists, not vice-versa. In your previous post , you attempted to excuse the IDF murder in the last part of the last sentence, the bit that immediately followed "There's no excuse for the executioner type of slaying attributed to one of the activists" which was: "but the raid was escalated by the activists after a long history of ships bringing weapons in the area." (Actually I've read somewhere that a number - it may have been 6 - of the 9 dead activists were executed like this, but have no link to support at the moment, so I'll let that one go by the by until I can find a link) You have repeated this pathetic argument in this post. You're quite specific about blaming both sides - "Both sides are at fault" (your post # 69). It doesn't matter an iota what the history was - no more than the history of events in the years preceding any cold blooded execution by anyone anywhere matters. It's only relevance is as a potential mitigating factor when the sentence is being determined after conviction. That's the legal position as I understand it. The IDF carried out a cold blooded execution - you seem to agree with that - which is murder in anyone's language. Unless you wish to claim the IDF is not responsible for its actions, then the IDF is prima facie guilty of murder here. Please feel free to argue Israel is above the law - that would be consistent with Israeli arrogance, behaviour and actions.

ashjor911 -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 7:30:04 AM)
in case you would not tell the truth, here some for you Mr. Menachem Begin, & others wanted for Justice in 1946 [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6Q8TqBAgi94/TSA9ujVrZ5I/AAAAAAAAAHo/aD8aYKxC5rE/s1600/Terrorist-Wanted.jpg[/image] source: http://thedissidentrags.blogspot.com/2011/01/genocidal-depopulation-deir-yassin.html Mr. Menachem Begin, was a former Prime minster of Israel, Imagine a state leader who was a mass murderer. the rest of the Zionist killers, thugs, thieves, rapist .... you name it they done it. he was a freakin TERROR...... Its like after what happend to them in Nazi Germany, they are doing now in Nazi Israel, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir Enjoying my Morning (5:00 PM) Coffee` on this.....

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 7:52:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So why are you attempting to offer one? Where did I offer one? Right here. quote: The situation occurred because of the actions of the activists, not vice-versa. In your previous post , you attempted to excuse the IDF murder in the last part of the last sentence, the bit that immediately followed "There's no excuse for the executioner type of slaying attributed to one of the activists" which was: "but the raid was escalated by the activists after a long history of ships bringing weapons in the area." You have repeated this pathetic argument in this post. You're quite specific about blaming both sides - "Both sides are at fault." It doesn't matter an iota what the history was - no more than the history of events in the years preceding any cold blooded execution anywhere matters. It's only relevance is as a potential mitigating factor when the sentence is being determined after conviction. That's the legal position as I understand it. The IDF carried out a cold blooded execution - you seem to agree with that - which is murder in anyone's language. Unless you wish to claim the IDF is not responsible for its actions, then the IDF is prima facie guilty of murder here. Please feel free to argue Israel is above the law - that would be consistent with Israeli arrogance, behaviour and actions. Bullshit. I didn't attempt to excuse anything. You are again, twisting words and twisting situations. What is it about "Both sides are at fault. The IDF should respond to the charges of execution and charge the soldier or soldiers responsible with murder. They should also have imprisoned the activists and charged them en masse with attempted murder." Don't you understand? So, pick out another friggin line tweak, and use it to ignore the fact that the activists boarded the ships with the express purpose of breaking the blockade, ignored repeated warnings, ignored repeated attempts to get them to enter the designated port for movement of goods into Gaza, chose violent response to being boarded, attacked, stabbed, beat, threw IDF members down several decks of the ship, used captured IDF weapons against the IDF, and otherwise initiated the contact and conflict. Get off your pathetic and intense hatred of Israel long enough to understand that both side share fault for the incident itself. The IDF holds blame squarely for what appears to be an execution style slaying. The activists hold blame squarely for initiating the contact and for escalating the violence within it.

tweakabelle -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 8:05:51 AM)
quote: et off your pathetic and intense hatred of Israel long enough to understand that both side share fault for the incident itself. The IDF holds blame squarely for what appears to be an execution style slaying. The activists hold blame squarely for initiating the contact and for escalating the violence within it. But the activists didn't "initiate contact" - the IDF did. No warnings were given. There were no shots fired in front of the ship to force it to halt (standard practice in such situations as you ought to know). There were no broadcasts that the ship was going to be boarded. These actions - boarding a ship- would be conducted by the Coast Guard or Police in any civilised country. A helicopter appeared out of the blue and the IDF commandos - not Coast Guard not civil police - attacked the ship - which is what commandos do. There was resistance. Any other civilised country would have handled the issue without incident - but no, Israel had to make an example. It has blown up in Israel's face. It is accused of murder - including by you - and has lost a major regional ally as a consequence of its own actions. Not to mention the odium of the world. Please acquaint yourself with the facts of the matter if you wish to comment on it - the IDF initiated contact and therefore, by your argument, hold responsibility for the incident.

StrangerThan -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 8:53:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: et off your pathetic and intense hatred of Israel long enough to understand that both side share fault for the incident itself. The IDF holds blame squarely for what appears to be an execution style slaying. The activists hold blame squarely for initiating the contact and for escalating the violence within it. But the activists didn't "initiate contact" - the IDF did. No warnings were given. There were no shots fired in front of the ship to force it to halt (standard practice in such situations as you ought to know). There were no broadcasts that the ship was going to be boarded. These actions - boarding a ship- would be conducted by the Coast Guard or Police in any civilised country. A helicopter appeared out of the blue and the IDF commandos - not Coast Guard not civil police - attacked the ship - which is what commandos do. There was resistance. Any other civilised country would have handled the issue without incident - but no, Israel had to make an example. It has blown up in Israel's face. It is accused of murder - including by you - and has lost a major regional ally as a consequence of its own actions. Not to mention the odium of the world. Please acquaint yourself with the facts of the matter if you wish to comment on it - the IDF initiated contact and therefore, by your argument, hold responsibility for the incident. What facts do you want me to acquaint myself with? Those of Israelis appearing "out of the blue"? Apparently, you are the only one who has such information, tweak.. and that is not surprising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla A few minutes after 9:00 pm, two missile boats and the Sa'ar 5-class corvette INS Lahav left Haifa naval base to intercept the flotilla. The three warships had speedboats, Black Hawk helicopters, and Shayetet 13 commandos on board. The Israeli Navy made initial contact with the flotilla at 11 p.m. (2000 UTC) on 30 May, about 120 miles (190 km) northwest of Gaza, 80 miles (130 km) off the coast of southern Lebanon, in international waters, ordering the ships to follow them to port or otherwise be boarded.[47][52][53] *The Israeli Navy radioed Tural Mahmut, the captain of the* Mavi Marmara, sending him this message: "Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostilities, which is under a naval blockade. The Gaza coastal area and Gaza Harbour are closed to all maritime traffic. The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in Gaza Strip and invites you to enter Ashdod port. Delivery of supplies will be in accordance with the authorities' regulations and through the formal land crossing to Gaza and under your observation, after which you can return to your home ports aboard the vessels on which you arrived." The reply was: "Negative, negative. Our destination is Gaza." Shortly after, two naval vessels flanked the flotilla on either side, but at a distance, and an Israeli aircraft flew overhead.[54] Five days after the raid, IDF released an audio recording purporting to be of a radio exchange between the Israeli Navy and the flotilla. After Israeli warnings that the ships were approaching a blockade, voices responded "Go back to Auschwitz!" and "Don't forget 9/11".[55] Denis Healey, the captain of Challenger I, and activist Huwaida Arraf who was on the bridge of the ship, disputed the authenticity of the recording. Israel conceded that it was impossible to trace who made the comments, or from which ship, because they were made on an open channel.[56][57] An Israeli journalist who was on board an IDF ship confirmed the IDF accounts.[text 5] The Israeli commandos who participated in the operation underwent a month of training prior to the operation, including dummy takeovers of a ship at sea with fifty soldiers performing the role of activists. The Israeli Navy claimed that the soldiers were trained for "a Bil'in-type opposition".[58] Ron Ben-Yishai, a veteran Israeli correspondent aboard the Israeli missile boat INS Victory reported that the assessment was that the passengers would show "light resistance and possibly minor violence". The soldiers were armed with paintball guns[20] possibly containing skin irritants, stun grenades, tasers, and pistols as sidearms, which were attached to their backs.[59] The soldiers had orders to confront protesters and peacefully convince the them to give up, and if not successful, to use non-lethal force to commandeer the ship. They were instructed to use their sidearms only in an emergency, when their lives were at risk.[37][60] Hours before the raid, the head of the İHH, Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım declared, "We're going to defeat the Israeli commandos–we're declaring it now. If you bring your soldiers here, we will throw you off the ship and you'll be humiliated in front of the whole world." Later, according to the crew of the ship, a group of about 40 İHH activists took over the ship.[61] From http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=154349727 Turkey ignored Israel's warnings when it allowed an aid flotilla to sail to Gaza, an inquiry has heard. Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was the first witness to testify to a state-appointed inquiry into a raid in which Israeli commandos killed nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists after boarding their vessel from a helicopter on May 31. He said Turkey had ignored warnings and appeals "at the highest level" many days before the fatal clash. The clash took place before dawn in international waters off Israel, after the flotilla ignored repeated Israeli warnings not to continue to Gaza. The enclave is ruled by the Hamas Islamist movement and sealed off by an Israeli naval blockade.

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 9:19:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle If not now, when? When Palestinian leaders emerge that are not terrorists committed to killing every Jew in Israel. Are you saying that national self determination requires your approval and not that of those of the nation involved?

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 9:23:38 AM)
quote: Because one moron who got elected tries to change the US goals that doesnt mean that everyone else goes along with them. If you had been in class for 6th grade civics instead of "smokin in the boy's room" you might have learned that that is what he was hired to do.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 9:24:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ashjor911 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Israel Was Invented in 1948.... do your math.. No it wasnt. Read some history.

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 9:33:04 AM)
quote: after they were attacked attempting to board Someone attempts to enter your house against your will and your trying to stop them is an attack and thus they are justified in killing you...where do you live?

thompsonx -> RE: Abbas formally announces U.N. membership bid (9/19/2011 9:49:03 AM)
quote: And why did they establish Israel? Because of the “historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country” (Mandate for Palestine, Preamble, Paragraph 3). Perhaps they might establish a state for native americans who have a "historical connection" to america.

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