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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 9:41:44 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Why is it that cons are so sure that government can`t do anything right and usually does everything wrong,....accept when it comes comes to capital crimes and convictions?


All of a sudden,government is great and perfect and above reproach and doesn`t make mistakes.


What is different between the situations?


Why are the cynical cons, all of a sudden are cock-sure that government does this right and does nothing else right?




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/21/2011 9:42:34 PM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 9:42:15 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Fuck you willbe,Dylan is a talent of immense proportions...the fact that you do ot appreciate him is not surprising in the least.


Bob Dylan is very clearly the best lyricist (if you haven't read the accumulated works of Robert Hunter, that is). But he has the worst vocal presentation of any artist I have paid money to see. Do I like basically all of his catalog. No doubt. Is he a genius on the order of Robert Hunter, Lou Reed, or maybe Tom Waits? Very definitely.



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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 9:46:59 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Yeah, I'm sick of the circus that has surrounded this, too. 

And willbe, I think that based on the fact that his conviction solely from so-called eyewitness testimony and those eyewitnesses have since recanted what they said in court.  This was a case where a cop was killed and somebody had to pay for that--and nobody cared who it was that paid.  The cops and prosecution and judges decided Davis should pay despite the lack of any evidence.



Welllllll.....Im not convinced yet.

""Ultimately, while Mr. Davis' new evidence casts some additional, minimal doubt on his conviction, it is largely smoke and mirrors," Moore ruled. "The vast majority of the evidence at trial remains intact, and the new evidence is largely not credible or lacking in probative value."

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable. They have done studies on that. When i was younger, someone falsely testified against me (the guy got his girlfriend and suckered another guy to lie), they lied thru their teeth but since i couldnt prove a negative I lost. That was when i realized just how flawed the system is. And i wasnt on death row.. and relying on an overworked public defender.. and I wasnt black..

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 10:08:11 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why is it that cons are so sure that government can`t do anything right and usually does everything wrong,....accept when it comes comes to capital crimes and convictions?



Maybe it has something to do with the fact that maintaining law and order, and the courts, are a legitimate function of even a limited government?  Check the Constitution.  It's in there.  Hell, there is even a shout-out to the death penalty written right into the Bill of Rights.



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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 10:12:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Fuck you willbe,Dylan is a talent of immense proportions...the fact that you do ot appreciate him is not surprising in the least.


Bob Dylan is very clearly the best lyricist (if you haven't read the accumulated works of Robert Hunter, that is). But he has the worst vocal presentation of any artist I have paid money to see. Do I like basically all of his catalog. No doubt. Is he a genius on the order of Robert Hunter, Lou Reed, or maybe Tom Waits? Very definitely.




Next you'll be adding Jim Carroll, lol. (very appropriate for this thread too!)

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 10:12:14 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I read somewhere that he wanted to take a polygraph. Apparently he was certain he could pass it. Oh wait.....polygraph results aren't admissible but re-canted statements made by witnesses claiming police coersion remain so. Even if an accused person is guilty, two wrongs don't make a right. Execution is legal premeditated murder. I think the death penalty should be outlawed.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 10:28:49 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why is it that cons are so sure that government can`t do anything right and usually does everything wrong,....accept when it comes comes to capital crimes and convictions?

All of a sudden,government is great and perfect and above reproach and doesn`t make mistakes.

What is different between the situations?



I've often wondered about that myself. My best guess is, most repukes are bloodthirsty, regardless of guilt or innocence. One only needs to think of how hard they fight against single-payer health care to realize they're as bloodthirsty against innocent sick people as they are against death row inmates.


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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 11:06:50 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Except they aren't bloodthrsty towards fetuses. They wait until the kid is born before they complain about paying for social services to give children a decent life. I could never understand how someone could be anti choice but pro death penalty.
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why is it that cons are so sure that government can`t do anything right and usually does everything wrong,....accept when it comes comes to capital crimes and convictions?

All of a sudden,government is great and perfect and above reproach and doesn`t make mistakes.

What is different between the situations?



I've often wondered about that myself. My best guess is, most repukes are bloodthirsty, regardless of guilt or innocence. One only needs to think of how hard they fight against single-payer health care to realize they're as bloodthirsty against innocent sick people as they are against death row inmates.



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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 11:11:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 9/21/2011 11:16:38 PM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 11:19:49 PM   
soul2share


Posts: 7084
Joined: 12/18/2007
From: somewhere out there.....
Status: offline 		I'm not getting into the arguments for or against the death penalty, but I will mention one thing......

I am living, breathing proof that lie detector tests can be manipulated.  The first two that I took indicated deceit, (there was none, trust me, they had a 28 page crimnal history questionnaire to prove it), and the operator told me that it was because I wasn't breathing "right".  So I returned for a third try, literally manipulated my breathing pattern, and passed with flying colors.  Same questions asked, same answers given.

You be the judge.  There is a reason that they aren't admissable in a court of law.  Which is equally as frustrating as they are largely used during the hiring process in my chosen career field.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/21/2011 11:28:11 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I wasn't in that position until this case. And if it is about guilt v innocence, better be sure there is actually guilt.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 12:59:39 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

This case has made me question my previous support of the death penalty. The problem was standard of proof. He was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A large part of the testimony was later recanted. Had it not been for that testimony, there is at least a chance he would not have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Instead of retrying him, the Supremes gave him a chance to prove his innocence with a very high standard of proof. Prove his innocence? What the fuck? Where is that in the goddamn constitution? He is a criminal defendant, the state has to prove him guilty. Yes, I know he got his day in court, but if you are going to impose such an irreversible sentence, why not err on the side of caution? If the State had a viable, non tainted case, they would have been able to convict him again, and impose the death sentence with no question of his guilt.
He may or may not have committed the crime, but he was definitely treated unconstitutionally. If the Supremes care so little about justice, I just don't see how we can justify the death penalty anymore.

It's so nice to hear this. I have no idea of the merits of this particular case. But to hear someone saying they're re-thinking their position - that their mind is open to change, whatever the issue - always makes me feel good.

Good luck with your decision and I hope whatever decision you make is the right one for you

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/22/2011 1:00:32 AM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 1:43:20 AM   
Endivius


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Joined: 8/22/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

He was executed at 11:08 pm ... just a fgew minutes ago. Maybe 40 minutes after the US Supreme Court turned down his request for a stay.
   Not sure what I think about this one. Sounds like there was a lot of recanted testimony and the cops really overlooked a lot in their initial investigation.
   Curious what others think. Anybody been following this closely?





Finally, now everyone can go back to bitching about Obama. Seriously, 'bout time.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 1:56:17 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

In other news, it was a twofer today, with a man convicted in the Texas courts facing the needle as well.

HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) — A white supremacist gang member was executed Wednesday evening for the infamous dragging death slaying of a black man.




I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but I find it hard to oppose in such heinous crimes.

Edited to add I wasn't referring to this case but only the Byrd case.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/22/2011 2:03:08 AM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 2:00:45 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why is it that cons are so sure that government can`t do anything right and usually does everything wrong,....accept when it comes comes to capital crimes and convictions?



Maybe it has something to do with the fact that maintaining law and order, and the courts, are a legitimate function of even a limited government?  Check the Constitution.  It's in there.  Hell, there is even a shout-out to the death penalty written right into the Bill of Rights.



Does not compute ....as Mr Spock used to day.

Establishing the legal framework that regulates the conservative god - the 'market' - is a perfectly legitimate function of government. (I'm not clear about the exact Constitutional situation in the USA, but that's the way it works everywhere I know). Yet I can't recall a single instance when market place regulation met with approval from right wingers here (or anywhere else). Even though lack of regulation was a primary cause of sub-prime fiasco and the Global Financial Crisis.

So, if there is a rational reason, we're not going to find it in TheHeretic's explanation.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/22/2011 2:42:55 AM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 2:04:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.



Well, would one say that anti-abortion and pro-death penalty (typical nutsucker position) would be relegated to only a matter of timing then?

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 3:22:46 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

In other news, it was a twofer today, with a man convicted in the Texas courts facing the needle as well.

HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) — A white supremacist gang member was executed Wednesday evening for the infamous dragging death slaying of a black man.




I am generally opposed to the death penalty, but I find it hard to oppose in such heinous crimes.

Edited to add I wasn't referring to this case but only the Byrd case.







I agree. I won't lose sleep over his being executed. On the other hand I would be more comfortable with Davis being executed if there were evidence other than eye witness testimony, especially since 7 of the 9 recanted and claimed police coercion.


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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 4:50:41 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

He was executed at 11:08 pm ... just a fgew minutes ago. Maybe 40 minutes after the US Supreme Court turned down his request for a stay.
   Not sure what I think about this one. Sounds like there was a lot of recanted testimony and the cops really overlooked a lot in their initial investigation.
   Curious what others think. Anybody been following this closely?




22 years ago. It has taken THAT long for the sentence to be carried out.

34 eye witnesses for the state. 6 witnesses for the defense.

Physical evidence like the shell casings. And they did match from the shooting Davis did earlier that evening.

Only TWO of the recants had anything of value and Davis refused their affidavits at the post-trial evidentiary hearing. Which made them worthless. And he was informed of that.

One of the so-called recants was from the vagrants girlfriend (now dead) wasn't a recantation at all, but rather reiterated all relevant parts of her trial testimony, which included a direct identification of Davis as the shooter.

Three other recants were minor modifications to their trial testimony.

Yes, most of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. After all he DID shoot someone in a busy parking lot.

Oh and before we get into race. . . the jury was 7 black and 5 white. All the witnesses were black and so was the first guy that Davis shot.


Would you have wanted this notjob in YOUR neighborhood?

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 5:00:02 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.


Define viability.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:06:42 AM   
dovie


Posts: 1211
Status: offline 		Troy Davis = Fifth Seal

 dovie who has to go to work

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