Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Troy Davis is now dead...


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Troy Davis is now dead... Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:11:54 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Next you'll be adding Jim Carroll, lol. (very appropriate for this thread too!)


Yeah, considering he was a suicidal loser. I'd just as soon ad the other great carroll from that erea (Chuck).
    I'm sorry running with the Ramones qualifies you for zip my friend.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:15:19 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.


Hahahahaha .... exactly what I find bizarre about nearly all the pro-lifers I have met. The don't usually even blink when it comes to capital punishment.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:19:02 AM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that maintaining law and order, and the courts, are a legitimate function of even a limited government?  Check the Constitution.  It's in there.  Hell, there is even a shout-out to the death penalty written right into the Bill of Rights.




But I dont think the framers of the Constitution would be proud of using a legit and solid death penalty case to whitewash a flawed death penalty case.   You did that.  Not them.



(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:26:29 AM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

The problem was standard of proof. He was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A large part of the testimony was later recanted. Had it not been for that testimony, there is at least a chance he would not have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Instead of retrying him, the Supremes gave him a chance to prove his innocence with a very high standard of proof. Prove his innocence? What the fuck? Where is that in the goddamn constitution?



This is the meat of the problem with this case, and thanks for pointing it out.

Sometimes, we can develop very powerful tools to deal with social problems. The people who wield a powerful tool, such as the death penalty, need to treat the process with respect.  In this case, cracker nation outraged over a dead cop did not.

But as others so eloquently pointed out, because it worked elsewhere on that day, it must apparently be working here, too.  Talk about more cracker nation logic.



(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:31:54 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We have had many debates on capital punishment and peoples views are pretty well set. This is the type of debate where there can be no compromise so I am not out to change minds. I am just expressing …again…my views as if they matter.

I am for the death penalty…some people forfeit their right to live by their actions in society.

BUT

I am only for capital punishment where there is no doubt of guilt…. There are many such cases but this is not one. His sentence should be commuted to life. At least then if innocent …which is still in very much doubt…he will have a chance at a retrial.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 6:55:22 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		Six hours ago I began reading the court transcrips for the first trial. Two minutes ago I finished the supreme court ruling for the final apeal. Despite the horrible job the media has done relaying the facts of the case to the public, the supreme court did an outstanding job of not only being probative and thoughtfull of all evidence throught each appeal, it was clear that Mr. Davis was guilty. Four eye witnesses identified him as the shooter of McPhail, and the shell casings from the scene were used to tie him to the shooting in Cloverdale.

At best, the most he could have hoped to achieve is prove someone else was responsible for the Cloverdale shooting, but since no one could identify the shooter positively from that crime, there is no way to exaunerate him. Additionally, at least three other people at the Cloverdale party were armed, but balistics positively matched the casings from the Cloverdale shooting the the McPhail shooting.

Finally, after looking at all the "recanted" statements, wich appeared in affidavit form, only six total recantations over the course of twenty years had any merit to them. Of those six, none of them had any evidence that would have proved his innocence, or would have cause any reasonable juror to not find him guilty in the first place. Primarily, the affidavit that would have offered the most possible value, contained testimony that was readily available during the first trial and four subsequent apeals, wich was never used by Mr. Davis, even though the witness was readily available during the first trial, and did in fact testify.

So once again, the sheep play to the media, banging drums and screaming injustice. When in fact, justice was served.


Edit: Typo

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 7:46:50 AM >

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 7:09:51 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Endivus, he shouldn't have to "prove his innocence.". That isn't how it is supposed to work.
I was not opposed to the death penalty IF the process is scrupulously fair and untainted. This was anything but.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 9/22/2011 7:30:36 AM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 7:35:34 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		You need to learn judicial precedence before you go jumping to such bold conclusions. Since I doubt you have the fortitude to bother educating yourself; I'll just point out that this is not the first capital case to go before the supreme court. It was deemed in House, Schlup, and Herrera that it is unreasonable to put the burden on the state to prove guilt after it has allready been proven. As such, the supreme court amended the death penalty laws outlined by those three specific cases to lay the burden of innocence on the convicted. It would be impossible to retry every single capital case. In order for a writ of habeus corpus or certiorari to be granted the aplicant must prove one of the following :

1) Evidence or testimony presented at trial was found to be incomplete, and new evidence or testimony would allow an alternate conclusion thereyby completing the facts presented;

2) Evidence or testimony denied would thereby violate the accused right to explore exculpatory evidence or alternate conclusion of facts presented;

3) Evidence or testimoney presented wich was completed at trial is found to later be incomplete wich would allow the accused to explore alternate conclusion of facts presented at trial.

Obviously you don't know anything about the case details if you think the trial or the appeals were anything but "scrupulously fair and untainted".

If you got an hour to burn here's the supreme court ruling
http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 7:38:23 AM >

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 7:38:29 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Eternal beat me to it(due to em having issues with the quote feature....every time I use it...it logs me out,so I have to login all over again and repeat the process.....groundhog day ) Using the one case to divert attention from this case is intellectually weak..at best.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 7:40:12 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		I keep going back to a quote someone said on these very forums once...I can't remember who said it but it was something along the lines of "I'd rather know than think I know."



Edit to add response:

quote:


Using the one case to divert attention from this case is intellectually weak..at best.


Yah shame on me for following logic, and case law, and facts....and all that other inconsequential stuff. Way better to just point my finger and say "neener neener your wrong cause I said so."

Oh wait.

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 7:43:04 AM >

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 7:51:53 AM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

It was deemed in House, Schlup, and Herrera that it is unreasonable to put the burden on the state to prove guilt after it has allready been proven. As such, the supreme court amended the death penalty laws outlined by those three specific cases to lay the burden of innocence on the convicted. It would be impossible to retry every single capital case.



This is the wielding of the weapon without proper respect.  We avoid offering the needed respect because apparently it is inconvenient.

and BTW, ballistics done by law enforcement cannot be wrong or fraudulent when a member of law enforcement is the victim?



(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:00:05 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH
This is the wielding of the weapon without proper respect.  We avoid offering the needed respect because apparently it is inconvenient.


Your so right, we should just have multiple trials every time a captial crime is commited. Screw finding them guilty once. We should just keep retrying them over and over and over and ....
They won't ever be innocent and but at least you can run down the street claiming you finally stuck it to "cracker nation".

quote:


and BTW, ballistics done by law enforcement cannot be wrong or fraudulent when a member of law enforcement is the victim?


For starters, it was retested three times, including in an affidavit filed for the supreme court ruleing. And all three said the same thing, and two were done by completely independant labs on behalf of the convicted. Got any more long range missles you wanna fire into the abyss of ignorance or you ready to move on to another thread to spout some more of your wonderous insight?


_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to EternalHoH)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:04:02 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

Six hours ago I began reading the court transcrips for the first trial. Two minutes ago I finished the supreme court ruling for the final apeal. Despite the horrible job the media has done relaying the facts of the case to the public, the supreme court did an outstanding job of not only being probative and thoughtfull of all evidence throught each appeal, it was clear that Mr. Davis was guilty. Four eye witnesses identified him as the shooter of McPhail, and the shell casings from the scene were used to tie him to the shooting in Cloverdale.

This is what puzzled me about this case. Did no one actually look into the case? There were more than 9 eyewitnesses. There was physical evidence.

I adamantly oppose capital punishment but this case looked pretty fair to me. Certainly more fair than a lot of recent executions.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:04:58 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Don't know what your problem is, but I have read plenty of SCOTUS death penalty cases. That is because I believe the DP can only be justified if the process is pristine. I am simply struggling with putting someone in a position to have to prove they are innocent, so long after that fact, and in the face of claims of police corruption. The procedure was questionable, at best. In light of the finality of this sentence and the circumstances, I don't think it is unreasonable for the state to have to retry the case. Oh well, too late now.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

You need to learn judicial precedence before you go jumping to such bold conclusions. Since I doubt you have the fortitude to bother educating yourself; I'll just point out that this is not the first capital case to go before the supreme court. It was deemed in House, Schlup, and Herrera that it is unreasonable to put the burden on the state to prove guilt after it has allready been proven. As such, the supreme court amended the death penalty laws outlined by those three specific cases to lay the burden of innocence on the convicted. It would be impossible to retry every single capital case. In order for a writ of habeus corpus or certiorari to be granted the aplicant must prove one of the following :

1) Evidence or testimony presented at trial was found to be incomplete, and new evidence or testimony would allow an alternate conclusion thereyby completing the facts presented;

2) Evidence or testimony denied would thereby violate the accused right to explore exculpatory evidence or alternate conclusion of facts presented;

3) Evidence or testimoney presented wich was completed at trial is found to later be incomplete wich would allow the accused to explore alternate conclusion of facts presented at trial.

Obviously you don't know anything about the case details if you think the trial or the appeals were anything but "scrupulously fair and untainted".

If you got an hour to burn here's the supreme court ruling
http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:11:22 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		The only reason it took so long to get to the supreme court is because of how fair it actually is. If every ruling didn't get it's fair share of due diligience everyone would cry about it being unjust. The burden of proof is on the the state to prove guilt. They did. Burden of proof is on the convicted to prove innocence. He didn't. Fact is, he didn't have anything even remotely available in any of his claims that would have presented reasonable doubt at the first trial. Wich is the point I was making to begin with. If you want to get into semantics, join your buddy Eternal you two can talk about how the law enforcement never doctors balistics labs when an officer is shot, and criminals are allways coerced by police. I'm sure it will be a well thought out discussion full of facts and statistics that will really draw the audience in.




Edit : Type and clarity

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 8:16:14 AM >

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:38:20 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I wasn't in that position until this case. And if it is about guilt v innocence, better be sure there is actually guilt.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.



I havent fully researched this yet, but from the hour of so Ive reading I did last night Im not the least bit convinced he wasnt guilty. Over 20 years 9 different judges looked at the case and the supposed "recantations" and not one of them thought there was any substance.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:38:48 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Endivus,I have no idea how you got the idea that my post was somehow directed at you...if I had not been having such issues with the quote feature perhaps that could have been avoided....but let me be clear I was referring to a post made earlier by Heritic in which he had brought up a particularly heinous case in Texas.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:42:48 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.


Define viability.



Everyone has there own standard, mine happens to be viability. If someone wanted to substitue "conception" they have a perfectly valid position. I think anything beyond viability destroys any possible anti death penalty stance.

Roe v Wade is as good a standard as any, since viability is a case by case thing, but the law needs a bright line.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:48:20 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Next you'll be adding Jim Carroll, lol. (very appropriate for this thread too!)


Yeah, considering he was a suicidal loser. I'd just as soon ad the other great carroll from that erea (Chuck).
    I'm sorry running with the Ramones qualifies you for zip my friend.




Yeah but running with Patti Smith and Allen Lanier does. Actually, other than People Who Died the JCB pretty much sucks lol. The movie was damn good though, having lived for a time in the area he grew up (a few years later) but only being on the fringes of the heavy drug scene. And it was another notch in the "DiCaprio really isnt as awful as he was in "Titanic" belt."

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:49:49 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Im sure its got nothing to do with innocence vs guilt.

In fact the most hypocritical position is to be pro-abortion (after viability) and anti-death penalty.


Hahahahaha .... exactly what I find bizarre about nearly all the pro-lifers I have met. The don't usually even blink when it comes to capital punishment.




Again, nothing bizarre about it.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Troy Davis is now dead... Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.096