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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:51:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Endivus, he shouldn't have to "prove his innocence.". That isn't how it is supposed to work.
I was not opposed to the death penalty IF the process is scrupulously fair and untainted. This was anything but.


Actually that is exactly how its supposed to work, once youve already been found guilty.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:53:21 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

You need to learn judicial precedence before you go jumping to such bold conclusions. Since I doubt you have the fortitude to bother educating yourself; I'll just point out that this is not the first capital case to go before the supreme court. It was deemed in House, Schlup, and Herrera that it is unreasonable to put the burden on the state to prove guilt after it has allready been proven. As such, the supreme court amended the death penalty laws outlined by those three specific cases to lay the burden of innocence on the convicted. It would be impossible to retry every single capital case. In order for a writ of habeus corpus or certiorari to be granted the aplicant must prove one of the following :

1) Evidence or testimony presented at trial was found to be incomplete, and new evidence or testimony would allow an alternate conclusion thereyby completing the facts presented;

2) Evidence or testimony denied would thereby violate the accused right to explore exculpatory evidence or alternate conclusion of facts presented;

3) Evidence or testimoney presented wich was completed at trial is found to later be incomplete wich would allow the accused to explore alternate conclusion of facts presented at trial.

Obviously you don't know anything about the case details if you think the trial or the appeals were anything but "scrupulously fair and untainted".

If you got an hour to burn here's the supreme court ruling
http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf


Thanks for the link. That was where I planned to go next before I fell asleep atk.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 8:58:12 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

Your so right, we should just have multiple trials every time a captial crime is commited. Screw finding them guilty once. We should just keep retrying them over and over and over and ....


I'm not saying that.  I don't know what a better system would have to look like.  I just believe the present system of 9 people (who behave along political lines) to determine what is an inconvenient burden for the state when lives are on the line is a flawed system. You give the present judicial system way too much credit.

Anytime a cop is the victim, you introduce doubt into the equation. Whether the ballistics analysis is outsourced has no bearing, as the cops collect and process the evidence.  Anytime you marry that conflict of interest with a capital case, you have a train wreck. We have blatant judicial activism in the courts, and suddenly when it comes to capital cases, 'judicial activism' among the law enforcement ranks is suddenly impossible to you?



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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:01:22 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH
I'm not saying that.  I don't know what a better system would have to look like.  I just believe the present system of 9 people (who behave along political lines) to determine what is an inconvenient burden for the state when lives are on the line is a flawed system.


That isnt the present system, in fact quite the opposite. For someone other than the most blatant sociopaths who want to die, there are so many levels of review before somebody can be executed its ridiculous.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:26:16 AM   
EternalHoH


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Status: offline 		You are confusing regulations on a lower level with a discussion over decisions at the top level over what is an unreasonable burden. The review process is at the lower levels. We have been talking about the high level decisions made by SCOTUS

Btw, there is a parallel to this in the financial sector, where right now, we are a country that shows its pathological desire to wield some powerful financial instruments without the respect they should command. Its like we found a financial genie inside a bottle, and we think we can control that genie. And we sorta did, except for around 2008, when that genie turned on us. And even now, post-crisis, some of the partisan hacks still feel we should continue wielding those instruments without the needed respect. On the financial side, however, the lower level review process we had in place has been gutted and made ineffective by higher level laws.



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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:26:32 AM   
Endivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

I'm not saying that.  I don't know what a better system would have to look like.  I just believe the present system of 9 people (who behave along political lines) to determine what is an inconvenient burden for the state when lives are on the line is a flawed system. You give the present judicial system way too much credit.


It's not an inconvienient burden on the state. It's an unreasonable and idiotic request by nuts who think everything is a conspiricay with some hidden shadowy force out to do horrid evils. The justice system is far far far more adequate and fair than you give them credit for. I am fully aware that it is not perfect, it is however, fair.

quote:


Anytime a cop is the victim, you introduce doubt into the equation. Whether the ballistics analysis is outsourced has no bearing, as the cops collect and process the evidence.  Anytime you marry that conflict of interest with a capital case, you have a train wreck. We have blatant judicial activism in the courts, and suddenly when it comes to capital cases, 'judicial activism' among the law enforcement ranks is suddenly impossible to you?


Not impossible, improbable. The problem here, is there was none. But your so buissy listening to Alex Jones you lost your objectivity. Killing a public servant doesn't introduce doubt, if anything it encourages law enforcement to be extremely tactile and procedural to ensure they get the right person and a conviction. Real life isn't an 80's made for t.v. movie where the cops run around beating folks with phone books and swapping evidence.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:32:38 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius


Killing a public servant doesn't introduce doubt, if anything it encourages law enforcement to be extremely tactile and procedural to ensure they get the right person and a conviction. Real life isn't an 80's made for t.v. movie where the cops run around beating folks with phone books and swapping evidence.


That is the way I see the current state of the system, with police carrying DAR's, surveillance/traffic cameras all over the place, phone video cameras, DNA etc. Certainly 50 years ago there were instances where a highly visible response for a policeman's killing caused corners to be cut. However, Carter, abu-Jamal and most likely Davis are not examples of that.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:39:06 AM   
Endivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

You are confusing regulations on a lower level with a discussion over decisions at the top level over what is an unreasonable burden. The review process is at the lower levels. We have been talking about the high level decisions made by SCOTUS


No, You are confusing SCOTUS regulation with judicial law. SCOTUS does not regulate law. It interprets it. It has allready set the precedents regarding DP burden of proof. The reason it fell to SCOTUS to do so, is because of the three cases I cited above, that pointed out flaws then in our legal procedure that no longer exists because of said cases. The review process at each circuit of the appealate courts is bound by the evidence presented in the appeal. It is not the job of the judicial system to regulate innocence. It is the responsibility of the judicial system to carry out the law, as interpreted by SCOTUS, and it is the responsibility of the accused to use that system to it's maximum potential. In this particular case, the convicted not only used it to it's maximum potential, to an extent he exploited it to delay his execution.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:43:37 AM   
blnymph


Posts: 1598
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Status: offline 		what a shame on a country that claims to be civilised

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:46:38 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		Yah shame on us for executing a multiple murderer. Shame on us.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:51:24 AM   
DomLasVegas


Posts: 11
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Status: offline 		Unless your actually in the courtroom you never hear all the evidence in any trial. More often than now the reportes report on bits and pieces of information. Reporters report on what they feel is news worthy. They leave out facts, or things that were said to create a interesting story. To make this story very interesting and controversal, they said the witnesses recanted their storys. What you do not hear is what relivant parts of the testomony were recanted. Such as a witness stating they got a "good look" at the defendent. Later they recant it stating they got a "pretty good look" at the defendent. Which in the defences case cast doubt on that witness getting that "good look". What you would hear in the news, is the witness stated they didn't get a good look at the defendant. They don't report that the recantation of the statement were the changing of a phrase, or a word or two.

Another note. In many death penality cases witnesses recant their testomony for the reason being. They don't want to live with the fact that their testomony resulted in someone being put to death. So they change it to releave their guilt.

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:52:37 AM   
blnymph


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Status: offline 		just in case your media didnt tell you - there have been appeals from all European governments, many Asian etc all over the world, the Pope asf ...


death penalty as such is a shame beyond any justification

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:56:09 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Hmmm.  Davis was convicted for killing one person.  What multiple murderer?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius

Yah shame on us for executing a multiple murderer. Shame on us.


_____________________________

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:56:19 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Davis is why the death penalty should be ended.  He did not commit this crime.


I have no idea if he did it or not, but the fact that there is this much doubt is enough for me to be against killing him.


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 9:58:04 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

just in case your media didnt tell you - there have been appeals from all European governments, many Asian etc all over the world, the Pope asf ...


death penalty as such is a shame beyond any justification


Yeah, governments that read the same slanted reporting in the MSM. Why dont you read the SCOTUS case and then come back and tell us why you still think he was innocent.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 10:03:30 AM   
Endivius


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Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		First he shot at a moving car hitting the driver side passenger, wich had three other occupants in it. The reasons for why he opened fire on the car are unclear witnesses testified several different reasons but none were congruent, later that night (around 1 hour) he executed a police officer in a parking lot after assaulting a man for not giving him his beer.


Edit Cause I'm tired.

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 10:39:55 AM >

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 10:07:19 AM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		The reason why there is this much doubt is because people are apathetic and lazy. If the people claiming he was innocent spent ten minutes reading just ONE of the court rulings or the trial transcript they would all shut the fuck up.

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 10:14:02 AM   
blnymph


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Status: offline 		and the whole world (outside the US) protested

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 10:14:58 AM   
Endivius


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Status: offline 		If we gave a shit what the rest of the world thought we wouldn't be in Iraq right now.

Edit to add: The only people protesting were public figures trying to capitalize on the sympathy vote and the ignorant nuts that had no knowledge of the actual facts of the case.

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/22/2011 10:17:32 AM >

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RE: Troy Davis is now dead... - 9/22/2011 10:15:14 AM   
mnottertail


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The Supreme Court issued a one-sentence statement denying Troy Davis’s stay of execution. It read, “The application for stay of execution of death presented to Justice Thomas and by him referred to the Court is denied.”


Not alot of valuable detail in that SCOTUS case.

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