RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (Full Version)

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samboct -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 7:56:33 AM)

Again- you're confounding the two questions- so let me try again. (I will also note that you have not provided clarification of your two seemingly contradictory posts referenced above.)

1) I am not denying that there may be external forces on the Middle East that have made people there unhappy.
2) Why have the people from this region chosen the tactics that they have? Because they work? Apparently not. So why do they persist with tactics that have been unsuccessful?

I am happy to see that Muslims are holding a peace conference. Clearly other folks on this thread are as well. I hope that by holding a peace conference, that the larger Muslim world realizes that rightly or wrongly, they are being held accountable for the actions of a few terrorists and that there alternative venues to air their grievances-other than tacit support of terrorism.

From my perspective, your denial of any Muslim culpability here is an extremist position and therefore counterproductive to the peace process. I am not denying that both sides have bloody hands- only suggesting that why Muslims have tacitly supported terrorism as a means of accomplishing their goals is puzzling, since it does not seem to have worked.

Underlying this question is the hypothesis that the reason terror tactics were chosen was because peace and acknowledgement of wrongs done to Muslims was not the intent, and that there has been a desire for conflict. If the peace conference examines this hypothesis, then perhaps there can be real progress going forward- which is my goal. What's yours?


Sam



ArizonaBossMan -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 7:59:30 AM)

They are in perpetual outrage. Nothing has changed. And for a religion of peace, they do seem to go about it in odd ways. Celebrating deaths, sending their children in with bombs... really peaceful in a sort of nutty way. Every place in the world the western world comes in contact with the muslim world, there is conflict. I say sprinkle em all with pigs blood and be done with it. Quit making excuses for them. Until there are muslims of peace who come forward to denounce their idiot brothers, I will treat them all with contempt. Just like I do liberals.



mnottertail -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 8:24:09 AM)

Christians send in their children (more correctly anyones children but their own) with tanks and planes and guns....celebrating death...look no further than Iraq.

So, there you have it, a distinction without a difference. Nothing to get up in arms about (pun intended).



Lucylastic -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 8:25:05 AM)

you aren't treating us with contempt, you are relieving us from your bullshit, THANKYOU from the bottom of my heart, I cannot tell you what a relief itis...



Lucylastic -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 8:29:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Christians send in their children (more correctly anyones children but their own) with tanks and planes and guns....celebrating death...look no further than Iraq.

So, there you have it, a distinction without a difference. Nothing to get up in arms about (pun intended).

I was gonna go there but man he is just not worth it



Aneirin -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 8:31:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

They are in perpetual outrage. Nothing has changed. And for a religion of peace, they do seem to go about it in odd ways. Celebrating deaths, sending their children in with bombs... really peaceful in a sort of nutty way. Every place in the world the western world comes in contact with the muslim world, there is conflict. I say sprinkle em all with pigs blood and be done with it. Quit making excuses for them. Until there are muslims of peace who come forward to denounce their idiot brothers, I will treat them all with contempt. Just like I do liberals.



Does it not occur to you that the case is the very same for them as it is for you, in fact the opposite side, the enemy or whatever you like to call them are to all intents and purposes the same as Christians or any other religious group for that matter. That being they have their militants as you have yours,they have their peaceful people as you have yours, they have their intellects as you have yours and they have their slackjaws as you have yours. But the problem is in every case the militant make the most noise and them followed by the religious leaders who appeal to that spiritual sense in most people whether they are ardent believers or not, but you will find all kinds of militancy and religious fervour is excited by conditions of living and often with that, conditions of living compared to that of others.

But Islam versus Christianity, The West versus the Middle East, is not like looking into a mirror ?

Because everything that is being levied as wrong on those from The Middle East, the west has also done in it's history, what made the west is what some western people accuse the Middle East of doing now, the only difference is modern technology, the assassin's knife compared to the use of explosive.

But if you are looking into a mirror, is your hatred and contempt at the image you see of yourself ?

But before you think America has sod all to do with Europe's history, even though the majority of you are descended from Europeans, look to what Americans did to the indigenous people of the land you inhabit.

But to quote I believe a biblical saying;

Let he without sin cast the first stone


But whilst you all buy into this bullshit, know this a few are getting very wealthy whilst you the commoner becomes a target for other's anger, your personal vendetta should be against those in your own country for putting your lives at risk so they can become wealthy, not the side you are being trained to dislike for their benefit.



Kirata -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 8:44:21 AM)


If you take a broad historical perspective, all three of our Western monotheisms have racked up a less than admirable score on violence. A reasonable person might be moved to suspect that there's something fundamentally flawed about the notion that 'my' God is the only 'true' God.

K.










Aneirin -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 9:02:28 AM)

From my evolving understanding, the God that the west worships is the god of commerce, as history shows if it was not conquest and control by blade, it was conquest and control by conversion, believe the same thing as us, and our religious leaders will tell you what you have to do to be considered good.

Therefore I understand religion in the west to be predominantly a tool of politics and commerce



Kirata -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 10:56:30 AM)


~ FR ~

Here's an interesting opinion column that appeared in Ha'aretz last week...

The Palestinians are the new Jews

K.



samboct -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 11:40:01 AM)

I think the article in Ha'aretz nailed it....couldn't agree more-well, not crazy about Yassir Arafat- still think he was one of the biggest crooks of the 20th century.

Sam



tweakabelle -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 12:46:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Again- you're confounding the two questions- so let me try again. (I will also note that you have not provided clarification of your two seemingly contradictory posts referenced above.)

From my perspective, your denial of any Muslim culpability here is an extremist position and therefore counterproductive to the peace process.

You will need to point out to me where I have done this. For the umpteenth time I have never "denied Muslim culpability".

Go back through my posts and please produce a post where I have denied Muslim culpability. You won't find one. There is none.

quote:

samboct
I refer you to your post #55 which to me suggests that the Western perception of Muslims being in more conflicts than other religions is in error.


The post #55 is not a post of mine. It is a post by Sanity.

Nor have I ever suggested that Muslims are engaged in more or fewer conflicts than any other religion. I have asked whether Muslim countries are more or less aggressive than the West. But that's an entirely different question. This has already been clarified for you at least twice. Yet you persist in your mistaken interpretation of my posts.

When you finally grasp that this is not my position, - that I do not deny, nor never have denied that some Muslims have resorted to terrorist tactics - hopefully you will finally cease demanding that I clarify a position that exists only in your imagination.



tweakabelle -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 12:56:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Well that's precisely where we have different views. From where I sit these matters are intricately linked.

Of course they're linked. That's not the point. Read about any Tibetan suicide bombers lately?

K.

Tibetan suicide bombers? No. But I have heard of Tamil suicide bombers. Tamils are usually 'credited' with developing the tactic of suicide bombings.

The Tamils are Hindu. Hindus, as I understand it are supposed to be non-violent. Yet I hear no demands being made of Hindus about suicide bombers, or violence generally. They're certainly not singled out in the manner that Muslims are.

quote:

If you take a broad historical perspective, all three of our Western monotheisms have racked up a less than admirable score on violence


Yes. My point is that violence by some Muslims (no matter how reprehensible it is) is treated as a very different matter than violence by the West (no matter how reprehensible it is). Nor does it seem to matter that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do NOT advocate or support this violence, and have in fact repeatedly condemned it explicitly.

Nor does it seem to matter that violence by the West is a causal factor of this terrorism. I don't see any way to ending terrorism in the region if we're going to ignore Western violence (including military invasions and occupations).

It's basic that if we wish to solve a problem, we have to address its causes.



samboct -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 2:18:22 PM)

Tweak

This is the post I was referring to- (and perhaps I fumbled CM's numbering scheme)

"Sanity do you actually know what a mixed metaphor is?

Meanwhile back on topic .....

Why is there such resistance from certain quarters to mere mention of Muslin peace conference? Is it because Muslims talking peace ruffles some very bigoted feathers?

Are Muslims warlike and aggressive? One way of measuring that might be to compare the number of international conflicts Muslim countries are involved in and comparing them to Western countries.

Can any one nominate a Muslim country that has been in more international conflicts since World War II than any one of the US, the UK or France? The gap is so substantial that I doubt if all the international conflicts all Muslim countries have been involved in post-WWII outnumbers any one of the US, the UK or France.

What does that tell us about who's warlike and aggressive and who's not? What does that tell us about our perceptions of the Muslim world?"

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/26/2011 9:29:01 PM >

To your question posed to me above: "Nor have I ever suggested that Muslims are engaged in more or fewer conflicts than any other religion. I have asked whether Muslim countries are more or less aggressive than the West. But that's an entirely different question."

These statements above I think most people would interpret as suggesting that Western countries are more warlike and aggressive than Muslim countries. I provided a Wiki link which showed these rhetorical questions to have fundamental flaws in their basis. And if you wish to argue that rhetorical questions in a certain vein are not tantamount to statements, I suspect that you will have few people on this board that agree with you. Therefore your question to me in the immediately prior post would seem to be contradictory.

Furthermore, the issue of Islam/Western countries is muddied because while Western countries separate politics and religion, some Muslim countries do not, such as Iran. There are also clearly Muslim countries, i.e. countries where the population is over 95% Muslim. Few western countries have such a religious demographic. I think the Wiki link posted prior adequately addresses your question- i.e. some non-secular Muslim countries are indeed warlike, and other countries with large Muslim populations have both internal and external conflicts.

You are arguing that the Western perception of Muslims as aggressive is unwarranted and unfounded, based on the actions of a few. I would respond that there is a basis for the Western perception rooted in suicidal terrorist attacks that seem to have a religious, rather than a political basis. Furthermore, these attacks enjoy at least tacit support throughout broad segments of the Muslim world- but not all. I would hope that this peace conference is an attempt to address these issues and this perception.

My disagreement with you stems from the following premise- you think the West picks on Muslims unfairly, that the cause of terrorist attacks is Western aggression and therefore the Muslim terrorist attacks are justifiable. From your posts here, it seems that there is no need for a Muslim peace conference, that all the problems of the region can be laid at the feet of Israel which exists with extensive US support. I have been trying to point out that these terrorist attacks have merely hardened Western resolve to Muslim demands and have drowned out any reasonable voices so that there has been no measurable progress towards peace in decades and I applaud any moderate Muslim and Israeli voices.

Your suggestion: "It's basic that if we wish to solve a problem, we have to address its causes." is in error. The opportunity to solve this conflict at its causes has long past. The conflict has taken on the aspects of a McCoy Hatfield feud- the original causes of the conflict have long been forgotten, and only the atrocities are remembered. Only by putting aside the differences of the past now, can there be a way forward.


Sam



tweakabelle -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 3:03:21 PM)

quote:

samboct
My disagreement with you stems from the following premise- you think the West picks on Muslims unfairly, that the cause of terrorist attacks is Western aggression and therefore the Muslim terrorist attacks are justifiable.


Here we go again. Putting words in my mouth again. I have never argued that proposition. Your laughable response to my post demonstrating you're misrepresenting me is to put words in my mouth again and to invent positions for me that I don't hold.

I do not think that "therefore the Muslim terrorist attacks are justifiable". I have never said that or suggested that. Nor do I hold or advocate many of the other positions you attribute to me in the last post. Nor have I ever advocated them here. It appears to me that you are incapable of understanding anything other than familiar and false clichés.

If you are going to continually invent positions for me that I don't hold, or misrepresent me, it's a waste of time talking to you



samboct -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 3:14:25 PM)

Tweak

Lets see if we can agree on something simple. From the peace conference agenda (I actually followed the link and decided to take a quick look at it.) I came up with the following statement that seems representative:

"From the very beginning the founder of Minhaj-ul-Quran, Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri has consistently presented a model of Islam espousing the universal values of the unity of mankind, inclusion, tolerance and love of humanity and condemning all forms of extremism, radicalism and terrorism. The very reason why organisation of Minhaj-ul-Quran was founded was in order to counteract religious extremism, the breeding ground for terrorism."

I have no problem with this goal- I think it's laudable. Do you? Because at this point, from my perspective, you've gone in so many different directions, I'm dizzy. And I'm wondering if in a funny way, we've come up in a microcosm the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis- there may be a certain humorous element here. So just taking a step back- can we agree that the conference has laudable goals? And if so, then what exactly are we disagreeing about ?

Sam



tweakabelle -> RE: Damn Muslims holding a peace conference. (9/30/2011 3:15:51 PM)

My suggestion to you sam is to learn how to listen.

Enjoy your life



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