A personal struggle

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

A personal struggle

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> A personal struggle

Page: [1] 2 3 4 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:04:52 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I was going to throw this in during the thread about the county clerk, but I'm not entirely sure that it's related. It's more about My personal struggle as a person of faith. This is going to be a terribly touchy subject and I'm trying very hard to put this out there without offending anybody.

I think it's just plain beyond My scope to deal with what amounts to a very few lines in the bible. That whole "a man shouldn't lie with a man as he would a woman" somehow is more than I can believe. That's coming from someone who a good number of people think is ridiculous for believing in a God in the first place. Somebody who can and does believe in a superior being, miracles, and all that other stuff, but there's that one sticking point that I just can't get behind.

The thing is, I don't want to believe it. I just plain flipping don't even want to try. I'm actually pretty darn content with saying to Myself that the words on the paper really were written by the hands of men, and ya know, they might have just messed that part up. Maybe it was their own personal thing against non straights that got in the way. Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe we've just translated the dang book too many times and that guy didn't do that great of a job. I don't know. For that matter, I don't even think I care. Any damn excuse is preferable to Me than actually believing that was what was said, meant, intended, and that's the way it ought to be.

I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way. (Yes, I know there are some other folks who feel completely the opposite.) I guess I'm just asking if anybody else actually struggles with it.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

Post #: 1

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:31:15 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I was going to throw this in during the thread about the county clerk, but I'm not entirely sure that it's related. It's more about My personal struggle as a person of faith. This is going to be a terribly touchy subject and I'm trying very hard to put this out there without offending anybody.

I think it's just plain beyond My scope to deal with what amounts to a very few lines in the bible. That whole "a man shouldn't lie with a man as he would a woman" somehow is more than I can believe. That's coming from someone who a good number of people think is ridiculous for believing in a God in the first place. Somebody who can and does believe in a superior being, miracles, and all that other stuff, but there's that one sticking point that I just can't get behind.

The thing is, I don't want to believe it. I just plain flipping don't even want to try. I'm actually pretty darn content with saying to Myself that the words on the paper really were written by the hands of men, and ya know, they might have just messed that part up. Maybe it was their own personal thing against non straights that got in the way. Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe we've just translated the dang book too many times and that guy didn't do that great of a job. I don't know. For that matter, I don't even think I care. Any damn excuse is preferable to Me than actually believing that was what was said, meant, intended, and that's the way it ought to be.

I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way. (Yes, I know there are some other folks who feel completely the opposite.) I guess I'm just asking if anybody else actually struggles with it.

The Bible is pretty clear on how it views the issue. It is also fairly clear on a number of other ideas. Thomas Jefferson, who most view as a deist, wrote that in the words of Jesus were "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

In my view, when you read the Bible, especially for understanding, there are cards like the normal suits, and trump cards. Those trumps come from the actual teachings of Jesus. Not once did he address the issue of homosexuality. What he did do was lay out a framework for your personal behavior, for people, not for governments or for laws in things like

Judge not lest you be judged" (Matthew 7:1). "Do not take the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own" (Matthew 7:3). "Let the one without sin among you cast the first stone" (John 8:7). "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31). "I was naked and you clothed me, hungry and you gave me to eat... Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of these the least my brethren, you have done it onto me" (Matthew 25).
What he also did was solidify the idea of religion and belief being a personal choice. I think of it in terms of, given the power he had, the only reason we're not all devout Christians is that he left it to us to make the choice ourselves. Those personal choices are what you stand for on judgment day. In making my own choices, the intent isn't to address how you live or anyone else lives, nor to establish law to make you live the way I live or think or believe. It is to be able to stand there when the item is read and say yes, that was my choice.

It means I don't have to agree or disagree with how anyone else lives. They choose the options in life for them. It's not my place to judge unless their choices affect my life.

Think too about the thief on the cross. That is, perhaps, one of the greatest lessons in the Bible, in that what matters is that you believe, that you know beyond doubt who is your God and savior, that what you bring to him is acceptance and acknowledgement of your failures, and your sins. It's not the judgement of others over what you think is a sin or not.

Just me.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 2

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:45:27 AM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

No. I do believe man is fallible and picked and chose what they wanted to keep and wanted to discard. My God is a God of love. That's the whole reason Jesus was sent here...one tiny, huge message; Love.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 3

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:49:17 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

This is pretty much what turned me off religion in my teens, after being a churchgoer since early childhood.

I get that the bible is not written by Jesus, but by others around him. I get that Jesus was a really good guy who was trying to get people to think about what they were doing, to care about themselves, others and the world we live in, and stop being selfish, immoral pricks. That I get, and that I applaud.

However - the bible is the problem. It was written by people with their own personal influences and prejudices and I just can't see how that can't have been added into the bible. Stuff like the nonsense about gays being the bad guys, or women being inferior. I can only see that as being influenced by the way things were then, rather than the way they should be.

I can't live by the words of the bible, but I can live by the intent of Jesus, which is to be the best possible person you can be. I think, for me, that's the best way.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 4

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 5:38:58 AM

nancygirl34652

Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2010
Status: offline

i am not a religious scholar....i have done no research....but i have 60 years of living experience and many of those years were spent on my own spiritual journey...based upon my family's religious background and my own experiences.

IMO the Bible is "about" the word of God...the 10 commandments are "from" God....i feel that to some extent the writers of the bible and, indeed, leaders of organized religions used the word of God and interpreted it to control or direct the masses.

i believe in the trinity...God the father, God the Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit....i believe in the 10 commandments...i believe in the golden rule...nowhere in any of the commandments do i see anything to do with homosexuality or sexual practices, except for adultery.

i try to live my life by the commandments...sometimes i succeed and sometimes i fail...but the most important thing that i try to do is practice the law of love....the spirit of my Jesus...treat others as you would wish to be treated and love one another as He loved us.

As i said, not a biblical or religious scholar....just a woman trying to live her life in love and peace.....YMMV

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 5

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 5:57:03 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Some excellent posts so far.

I think one way to answer your question is that the injunction you mention is in Leviticus of the OT, and the words of Jesus in the NT changes, completes and redirects all or most of the OT teachings.

Just as Christians do not have to obey the laws of Deuteronomy because they were supplanted or fulfilled by the Christ, the injunction you mention is supplanted by the Christ's message of love.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 6

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 6:15:06 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

I have one other note that I didn't have time to write on earlier... kids, wife, you know, family and time to get up and going.

There's another story related to Phillip later in the Bible, where he met and evangelized to an Ethiopian eunuch. Much has been written and speculated about the man, but in this case, I take the words literally for the lesson they impart. A eunuch, from Deuteronomy, would have been forbidden from the temple because his body had been desecrated, a text that basically separates him not just from God but from even the opportunity to worship and approach God.

Phillip's response was not just to explain the text of Isaiah to him, but to explain the salvation of Jesus and to baptize him - to in effect, open the doors that were once closed to him. People can argue these weren't the words of Jesus, and argue that Paul later cast it as an abomination. Those are true statements. Between the realms of what Jesus said however, and what men later wrote, Phillip's actions are more in context with what Jesus taught, than Paul's. That doesn't mean I think Paul was wrong. It means that the difference in passages to me is the difference between how one should act, and the personal beliefs of a specific person. Therein lies the point of confusion for a lot of people. I don't see any myself.

People will always interpret partly what they want from the Bible. I admit to doing that myself. My degree is in science. I can't reconcile the two by listening to either side tell me what to think or believe. And what I think or believe is mine to address when there is judgement to stand for, not what anyone else thinks or believes.

Jesus himself could have walked away from a lot of people and situations damned by religion and law. He did not. That doesn't mean he accepted a given lifestyle. It meant, to me at least, that wasn't the important thing he came here to talk about or teach people.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 7

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 6:32:10 AM

VirginPotty

Posts: 11624
Joined: 7/16/2008
From: Virginville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

No. I do believe man is fallible and picked and chose what they wanted to keep and wanted to discard. My God is a God of love. That's the whole reason Jesus was sent here...one tiny, huge message; Love.

^^^This^^^

LadyP, are you very familiar w/the Bible? If someone were to ask for a specific quote could you quote it type of familiar?
If so, think of any prophecies in the Bible that have come true to date.
I can't stop thinking of the one in Revelations that states that the sign of the end of time is when we're all to be marked w/a "666" before being able to make purchases lest we go hungry. I'm paraphrasing of course but I trust that you get my drift.

I guess my point is that parts of the Bible are indeed true but unfortunately with all the translations that have been done I'm sure it's come down to pick & choose what to believe in.

_____________________________

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 8

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 6:44:27 AM

samboct

Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline

Hi Lady Pact

One viewpoint that may be helpful is that parts of the bible were written at different times and by different people. It's not a homogeneous document- there's tons of stuff that's contradictory. Over the years, religions have evolved, but they're faced with the problem of how to deal with teachings that are no longer valid or were developed to deal with situations that no longer exist. So, like many humans, when faced with an unpleasant set of facts, they're put aside because to deal with them, it's just too difficult or painful. Its actually kind of fitting to deal with this on Rosh Hashonah...

One way to look at most of the Old Testament is that it's a set of laws for survival in the desert and as such, it works pretty well. The Kosher dietary laws were intended to avoid diseases like trychannosis (sp?) and to conserve protein and calories carefully. In this framework, a stricture against homosexuality makes sense. The tribe needs to reproduce, and all efforts must be directed towards that goal. If you're not going to reproduce, you're a waste of resources.

But by Jesus time, Jews were no longer wandering in the desert, they'd settled down and become better educated, better fed, (yes, agrarian societies are often not as well fed as hunter gatherers, but this wasn't exactly lush turf.) and resources were no longer quite so dear. Jews evolved, but Jesus took things one step further and urged more of a break with OT teachings than many were comfortable with. Catholicism was a welcoming religion- Judaism was not. (Having catholic tastes means having very broad tastes.) Over the years, both Judaism and Christianity have evolved from their beginnings, but repudiating those beginnings has always been fraught with peril. Consequently, religions are often contradictory. Modern Judaism deals with these contradictions by the evolutionary approach I just sketched out, as does some of Christianity. (I give up on fundamentalism of either Christian or Jewish persuasion) So even without Jesus's teachings, modern reform Judaism does not repudiate homosexuality.

As another example, the Kosher dietary laws also evolved. Jews that settled in Italy had a real problem because there weren't a lot of goats (or they were too valuable) but pigs in Italy didn't have trychannosis. So Italian Jews declared that eating pig was OK- and I think shellfish too. (Original strictures against shellfish were due to hepatitis.)

Hopefully, understanding the origin of the strictures against homosexuality will help as well as showing that other religions do evolve over time, with or without the catalyst of a charismatic rabbi. (Rabbi means teacher- it's pretty hard to argue that Jesus wasn't a rabbi)

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 9

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 6:51:14 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Some excellent posts so far.

I think one way to answer your question is that the injunction you mention is in Leviticus of the OT, and the words of Jesus in the NT changes, completes and redirects all or most of the OT teachings.

Just as Christians do not have to obey the laws of Deuteronomy because they were supplanted or fulfilled by the Christ, the injunction you mention is supplanted by the Christ's message of love.

Firm

lol-"New Testament"...

L'shanah tovah, y'all!

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 10

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:03:12 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

No. I do believe man is fallible and picked and chose what they wanted to keep and wanted to discard. My God is a God of love. That's the whole reason Jesus was sent here...one tiny, huge message; Love.

^^^This^^^

LadyP, are you very familiar w/the Bible? If someone were to ask for a specific quote could you quote it type of familiar?
If so, think of any prophecies in the Bible that have come true to date.
I can't stop thinking of the one in Revelations that states that the sign of the end of time is when we're all to be marked w/a "666" before being able to make purchases lest we go hungry. I'm paraphrasing of course but I trust that you get my drift.

I guess my point is that parts of the Bible are indeed true but unfortunately with all the translations that have been done I'm sure it's come down to pick & choose what to believe in.

Yes it is pick and choose.

Myself, I don't believe in any of it.

He did some good things in his lifetime but basically was the leader of a cult that exists to this day.

And can someone please explain to me how the Virgin Mary was still a virgin after giving birth to Jesus's older siblings?

(in reply to VirginPotty)

Post #: 11

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:06:05 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

rml.. the "was Mary a virgin" thing might be best addressed in another thread..

IMO, of course...

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 12

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:27:29 AM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
In my view, when you read the Bible, especially for understanding, there are cards like the normal suits, and trump cards. Those trumps come from the actual teachings of Jesus. Not once did he address the issue of homosexuality. What he did do was lay out a framework for your personal behavior, for people, not for governments or for laws in things like

Judge not lest you be judged" (Matthew 7:1). "Do not take the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own" (Matthew 7:3). "Let the one without sin among you cast the first stone" (John 8:7). "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:31). "I was naked and you clothed me, hungry and you gave me to eat... Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of these the least my brethren, you have done it onto me" (Matthew 25).

What he also did was solidify the idea of religion and belief being a personal choice. I think of it in terms of, given the power he had, the only reason we're not all devout Christians is that he left it to us to make the choice ourselves. Those personal choices are what you stand for on judgment day. In making my own choices, the intent isn't to address how you live or anyone else lives, nor to establish law to make you live the way I live or think or believe. It is to be able to stand there when the item is read and say yes, that was my choice.

It means I don't have to agree or disagree with how anyone else lives. They choose the options in life for them. It's not my place to judge unless their choices affect my life.

Think too about the thief on the cross. That is, perhaps, one of the greatest lessons in the Bible, in that what matters is that you believe, that you know beyond doubt who is your God and savior, that what you bring to him is acceptance and acknowledgement of your failures, and your sins. It's not the judgement of others over what you think is a sin or not.

Just me.

We may not agree on some things, but we agree 100% on this.

I have often tried to explain to my both my religious and my atheist friends that religion, at it's best, is a "a framework for your personal behavior", an ethical system to deal with inter-personal relationships.

Further, the Golden Rule "Do onto others as you would have them do unto you" is a double-edged sword. If I feel I have a "right" to rule on their behavior in the privacy of the home or bedroom, then that means I accept that they have the same right over me.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 13

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 8:42:53 AM

gungadin09

Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Somebody who can and does believe in a superior being, miracles, and all that other stuff, but there's that one sticking point that I just can't get behind.

i don't know if this will help or not, but i suspect there's more than that one thing that You can't get behind. What do You think about the rule that a man shouldn't sit in the same chair that woman on her period has sat in, until a week has passed and it's "clean" again? What do You think about the rule that a woman shouldn't cut her hair? What do You think about animal sacrifice, or the rules regulating the trading of slaves, or the dietary proscriptions? Come to think of it, what do You think of the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition?

i suspect that even the most dogmatic read the Bible with a grain of salt, keeping in mind that it was written a long time ago, in a culture foreign to our own, and that not every last word of it applies to modern life.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/29/2011 8:43:36 AM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 14

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 9:42:07 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And can someone please explain to me how the Virgin Mary was still a virgin after giving birth to Jesus's older siblings?

um..... artificial insemination

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 15

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 9:44:11 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Somebody who can and does believe in a superior being, miracles, and all that other stuff, but there's that one sticking point that I just can't get behind.

i don't know if this will help or not, but i suspect there's more than that one thing that You can't get behind. What do You think about the rule that a man shouldn't sit in the same chair that woman on her period has sat in, until a week has passed and it's "clean" again? What do You think about the rule that a woman shouldn't cut her hair? What do You think about animal sacrifice, or the rules regulating the trading of slaves, or the dietary proscriptions? Come to think of it, what do You think of the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition?

i suspect that even the most dogmatic read the Bible with a grain of salt, keeping in mind that it was written a long time ago, in a culture foreign to our own, and that not every last word of it applies to modern life.

pam

what do you think about the patriot act?

the war on "fear"?

The commercial God?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to gungadin09)

Post #: 16

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 9:55:31 AM

HeatherMcLeather

Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline

quote:

And can someone please explain to me how the Virgin Mary was still a virgin after giving birth to Jesus's older siblings?

Well, you see...

Attachment (1)

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 17

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 10:02:47 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I was going to throw this in during the thread about the county clerk, but I'm not entirely sure that it's related. It's more about My personal struggle as a person of faith.

Everything in life has a liability.

Be it physical, spiritual, emotional whatever.

Life is all about choices, that range from moral, economical, spiritual, temporal and so forth and so on, all that are effected in one way and another to some degree by any choice one makes on any matter.

Keep in mind that someone chose a few books from thousands to put in the book called the bible and burned the rest.

God wrote nothing, God cannot write anything.

Men considered inspired by God wrote everything.

What you refer to I believe goes back to sodom and gemorha.

While the bible does have a lot of good wisdom in it, that illustrates paths to more or less liability of the conscience and soul, cause and effect etc, often hidden from plain view, it really depends on where you are at.

Everything in life has a benefit and cost somewhere, sometimes obvious sometimes not so much.

Unfortunately you must search your own soul as everyones knowledge and experience are so varied for what you wish to invest and where.

Its difficult and like grieving there are no short cuts and circumventing the process can be very costly.

My only advice would be that in case you err to err on the side of caution.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/29/2011 10:04:33 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 18

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 10:05:07 AM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

~FR~

LMAO at Heathers graphic!!!!

and pretty much agrees with R0

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 19

RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 10:21:13 AM

MissImmortalPain

Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline

Lp, I'm going to do something here that I never do. I'm not going to read what anyone else said before I hit ok at the bottom of this. I'm doing it because I don't want anything I say to be affected by what others think(sorry to anyone this might offend) But I think I might be able to help you feel a little better, or maybe worse, about the admonishments to homosexuality in the bible. Very few people seem to know that those few words about it were not in the actual bible until King James held the crown. He was a homosexual himself and there were those that wanted the crown taken from him. Those few lines were added in a hopes that people would view their king as being sinful and they would then toss him out(or hang him) It was not an error in translation it was just a play for power that for a very long time people have failed to see the light about. There are actually a few other things like this in the bible as we now know it...but it takes a great deal of study to find them, and understand why man made the changes they made.

p.s.- I am a pagan and I can explain that whole virgin birth thing too. But it might offend some...so I won't.*ok, I admit I saw heathers pic*

I hope this was helpful.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 9/29/2011 10:25:23 AM >

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 3 4 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> A personal struggle

Page: [1] 2 3 4 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109