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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 12:50:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am unwilling to buy your interpretation as well. Now, exactly where is that enshrined?

Shit, Ron, that gives me an opening a mile wide ... but I'm trying to take the high road here.  Help me out, man! 

You may have it, where in the US Constitution is that enshrined?

Fifth Amendment: " ... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

Firm


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 12:55:41 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		..............except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger...............

Yeah the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth....So help me, Allah!!!!

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 12:58:38 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

..............except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger...............

Yeah the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth....So help me, Allah!!!!

I think you need to dig a little deeper.

You are basically taking the position that if the President orders a US military force to assassinate an American citizen, that is legal.

Firm

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 1:01:53 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Maybe if you gave a shit about the Rule of Law so much, you should have tried some of those torturers to prove the point?

Also, explain supporting GITMO in the context of the fifth amendment you've cited... Is it possible for extrajudicial detention to be valid, yet extrajudicial killing is invalid?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/30/2011 1:03:50 PM >

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 1:02:06 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Two American militants, including senior Al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki

is it just me, or was that lad the spit of Ali G?

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 1:27:15 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

..............except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger...............

Yeah the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth....So help me, Allah!!!!

I think you need to dig a little deeper.

You are basically taking the position that if the President orders a US military force to assassinate an American citizen, that is legal.

Firm



I am taking the presidents postion, he was not targeted, he was a casualty of war.





http://www.collarchat.com/m_1782609/mpage_2/key_battlefield/tm.htm#1785624



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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 1:47:28 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Not an unreasonable line, unless no confederates at all died during military actions while that war of Northern aggression thing was going on.
If that was a bad thing, the Republicans had better shut up about Lincoln, hadn't they?

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 1:57:51 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Not an unreasonable line, unless no confederates at all died during military actions while that war of Northern aggression thing was going on.
If that was a bad thing, the Republicans had better shut up about Lincoln, hadn't they?
What war of Northern aggression are you speaking of.I know my countries history backwards and forwards...yet this chapter escapes me.Please enlighten me.

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:02:44 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That civil war you had? The one Britain almost entered on the confederate side?
I'm told a fair few Rebs now call it the war of Northern aggression for some strange self justifying arsey reason.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:04:49 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		They can call it whatever the fuck they like...everyone knows the victors write the history books...it was The Civil War...and they lost,they must learn to deal with that

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:04:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

..............except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger...............

Yeah the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth....So help me, Allah!!!!

I think you need to dig a little deeper.

You are basically taking the position that if the President orders a US military force to assassinate an American citizen, that is legal.


I am taking the presidents postion, he was not targeted, he was a casualty of war.

The entire world is a battlefield, then?

Firm


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:05:01 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Not an unreasonable line, unless no confederates at all died during military actions while that war of Northern aggression thing was going on.
If that was a bad thing, the Republicans had better shut up about Lincoln, hadn't they?
What war of Northern aggression are you speaking of.I know my countries history backwards and forwards...yet this chapter escapes me.Please enlighten me.


The war of NORTHERN AGGRESSION is the southern term for the civil war.   The NORTH invaded Virginia at the outset, not the other way around.


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:07:45 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No you are of course mistaken...the forces in rebellion fired on the federal fort...perhaps you have heard of it ....Fort Sumpter.
Thus began the Civil War.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:16:20 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

They can call it whatever the fuck they like...everyone knows the victors write the history books...it was The Civil War...and they lost,they must learn to deal with that

Fair enough. I do rather like the alternative term though.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:31:46 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yes ,it has the beauty of painting the victors as the bad guys...I can see the attraction.I have been a Civil War buff since my childhood,spent hours and hours gaming it with some really good Avalon Hill war game you are the general type shit....and always chose the South's position.I ,as a child bought into the whole "lost cause,gallant Army of Northern Virginia" thing...but here's the thing that as an adult there is no escaping......they fought to perpetuate an evil institution.There is no honor,there is no gallantry in that....states rights is nothing but a canard offered to obfuscate the truth....and at the time to convince non slave holding southerners to rush to arms.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:33:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Not an unreasonable line, unless no confederates at all died during military actions while that war of Northern aggression thing was going on.
If that was a bad thing, the Republicans had better shut up about Lincoln, hadn't they?
What war of Northern aggression are you speaking of.I know my countries history backwards and forwards...yet this chapter escapes me.Please enlighten me.


The war of NORTHERN AGGRESSION is the southern term for the civil war.   The NORTH invaded Virginia at the outset, not the other way around.


mmmmm no. The South attacked Fort Sumter before Bull Run.

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:33:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No you are of course mistaken...the forces in rebellion fired on the federal fort...perhaps you have heard of it ....Fort Sumpter.
Thus began the Civil War.


Fort Sumter is and was in South Carolina, a Southern State.  From Wikipedia:

On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina declared its secession, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie and secretly relocated ...  Fort Sumter on his own initiative, without orders from Washington. ... Over the next few months repeated calls for evacuation of Fort Sumter from the government of South Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. ... After realizing that Anderson's command would run out of food by April 15, 1861, President Lincoln ordered a fleet of ships... to attempt entry into Charleston Harbor and support Fort Sumter.

By April 6, 1861 the first ships began to set sail for their rendezvous off the Charleston Bar. The first to arrive was the Harriet Lane, before midnight of April 11, 1861.

On Thursday, April 11, 1861, Beauregard sent three aides to demand the surrender of the fort. Anderson declined, and the aides returned to report to Beauregard. After Beauregard had consulted the Secretary of War, Leroy Walker, he sent the aides back to the fort and authorized Chesnut to decide whether the fort should be taken by force.

The aides waited for hours while Anderson considered his alternatives and played for time. At about 3 a.m., when Anderson finally announced his conditions, Colonel Chesnut, after conferring with the other aides, decided that they were "manifestly futile and not within the scope of the instructions verbally given to us". The aides then left the fort and proceeded to the nearby Fort Johnson. There, Chesnut ordered the fort to open fire on Fort Sumter.

It was indeed the war of Northern Aggression.

Firm


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:35:29 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yes ,it has the beauty of painting the victors as the bad guys...I can see the attraction.I have been a Civil War buff since my childhood,spent hours and hours gaming it with some really good Avalon Hill war game you are the general type shit....and always chose the South's position.I ,as a child bought into the whole "lost cause,gallant Army of Northern Virginia" thing...but here's the thing that as an adult there is no escaping......they fought to perpetuate an evil institution.There is no honor,there is no gallantry in that....states rights is nothing but a canard offered to obfuscate the truth....and at the time to convince non slave holding southerners to rush to arms.

Except for their defense of slavery, the South was correct.

Of course, that was a big "except".

Firm


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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:41:31 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		A Federal instalation is still a Federal installation ...and Lincoln had gone t great lengths to assure southern leaders that what was being done was a resupply of food and water...not war materials....Southern leaders,particularly in the person of Beuregard disregarded these assurances and commenced the shooting.....paint it any way you want,they fired on a federal instalation that was flying a Federal flag...hence they,and they alone commenced the ensuing conflagration .
No other wY to look at it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 9/30/2011 2:42:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No you are of course mistaken...the forces in rebellion fired on the federal fort...perhaps you have heard of it ....Fort Sumpter.
Thus began the Civil War.


Fort Sumter is and was in South Carolina, a Southern State.  From Wikipedia:

On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina declared its secession, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie and secretly relocated ...  Fort Sumter on his own initiative, without orders from Washington. ... Over the next few months repeated calls for evacuation of Fort Sumter from the government of South Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. ... After realizing that Anderson's command would run out of food by April 15, 1861, President Lincoln ordered a fleet of ships... to attempt entry into Charleston Harbor and support Fort Sumter.

By April 6, 1861 the first ships began to set sail for their rendezvous off the Charleston Bar. The first to arrive was the Harriet Lane, before midnight of April 11, 1861.

On Thursday, April 11, 1861, Beauregard sent three aides to demand the surrender of the fort. Anderson declined, and the aides returned to report to Beauregard. After Beauregard had consulted the Secretary of War, Leroy Walker, he sent the aides back to the fort and authorized Chesnut to decide whether the fort should be taken by force.

The aides waited for hours while Anderson considered his alternatives and played for time. At about 3 a.m., when Anderson finally announced his conditions, Colonel Chesnut, after conferring with the other aides, decided that they were "manifestly futile and not within the scope of the instructions verbally given to us". The aides then left the fort and proceeded to the nearby Fort Johnson. There, Chesnut ordered the fort to open fire on Fort Sumter.

It was indeed the war of Northern Aggression.

Firm



Yes, but the Fort was Union property, occupied by Union soldiers and the Confederacy fired on Sumter. Bull Run was 6 days later.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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