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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:59:03 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society


Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here.

I see nothing wrong with keeping language and traditions alive within cultural groups as long as they don't become isolated because of language and tradition. I think you will find it is impossible for a relatively small cultural group to maintain exclusive language and traditions over multiple generations within a larger group or groups.

New generations tend to blend in and soon become part of the whole even if the old generation objects… This is the way it has been in America and I see no reason this should change.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/4/2011 9:05:09 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:10:15 PM   
luckydawg


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Joined: 9/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Native Americans are different in this country than any other group... why? Sovereign nation. Unlike any other group, as a race, they were and still are granted special considerations by the government. AFAIK they are the only group to ever have been treated as such. The only group as a race made promises by the government, had them broken, made new promises, had them broken. Whether anyone wants to admit it, recognize it or accept it... thats the crux of the difference. Its two nations within one.


This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska).


As far as the OP, we absolutley benefit by having the cream of the world come here and join our country. And the diverse cultures that are part of America (and have been from day one) are a great benefit, despite sometimes causing problems.

Btu I do think everyone should adhere to some "WASP" type values. The ideals of Human Rights and a Democratic Republic for example. If folks want to live differently they are free to leave.

And I agree with you Tazzy, that having a common language is of utmost importance. And English seems to be doing just fine.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:11:04 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society


Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here.

Many had the same problem. He explained later on:
quote:

For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced:  by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:24:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes I did see his explanation but i am still not sure what he means...Is he saying his view on multiculturalism is something new or something that has been here from the beginning?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:33:39 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I did see his explanation but i am still not sure what he means...Is he saying his view on multiculturalism is something new or something that has been here from the beginning?

Butch

I think the question should be better answered by him.
But I do not think that this is the point... the point would be if multi-culturalism, as he sees it, is positive or not. Not about the originality of his views.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/4/2011 9:34:03 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:36:04 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society


Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here.

I see nothing wrong with keeping language and traditions alive within cultural groups as long as they don't become isolated because of language and tradition. I think you will find it is impossible for a relatively small cultural group to maintain exclusive language and traditions over multiple generations within a larger group or groups.

New generations tend to blend in and soon become part of the whole even if the old generation objects… This is the way it has been in America and I see no reason this should change.

Butch



The problem is that there is resistance to new generations assimilating, unlike the past when it was encouraged.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:37:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska).


http://www.namsinc.org/pdf/Soverign%20nation%20white%20paper%202.pdf

Every year the Bureau of Indian Affairs publishes a list of federally recognized tribes. This list is regularly updated, as more tribes complete the process of being federally recognized as a sovereign nation. These include American Indian tribes in the lower 48 states and villages in Alaska. Native Hawaiians and Samoans, as well some of the people living in Pacific protectorates, have many of the same rights as tribes. Even in the case of tribes who are not federally recognized, there are often cases where similar rights and case law apply

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:37:58 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country.  There are areas where it is happening as we speak.

Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:44:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country.  There are areas where it is happening as we speak.

Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"?


Yup, its the last line in "Hey You" (well, with united replaced with together)

(BTW, youre agreeing with me too much lately....be careful with that!)

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 10/4/2011 9:45:58 PM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:46:48 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		But you see his explanation of what multiculturalism is to him will guide my answer... As an example if he is using multiculturalism to describe how past migrations of immigrants have been assimilated that is one thing...but if he is describing some new concept that is another.

To say the multiculturalism of the past is a failure is to say the country as it is today is a failure and I just want to know if this is what he is saying.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:49:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The problem is that there is resistance to new generations assimilating, unlike the past when it was encouraged


This has always been the case...nothing new...you just can't stop new generations from changing no matter where the resistance to change comes from

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:49:56 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country.  There are areas where it is happening as we speak.

Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"?


Yup, its the last line in "Hey You" (well, with united replaced with together)

(BTW, youre agreeing with me too much lately....be careful with that!)


Yeah, I noticed.  I'll try not to make a habit of it OK?

You DO realize, though, that means you also agree with Me.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 9:58:11 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska).


http://www.namsinc.org/pdf/Soverign%20nation%20white%20paper%202.pdf

Every year the Bureau of Indian Affairs publishes a list of federally recognized tribes. This list is regularly updated, as more tribes complete the process of being federally recognized as a sovereign nation. These include American Indian tribes in the lower 48 states and villages in Alaska. Native Hawaiians and Samoans, as well some of the people living in Pacific protectorates, have many of the same rights as tribes. Even in the case of tribes who are not federally recognized, there are often cases where similar rights and case law apply



The tribes get recognized as a soverein, each one.

Its not "two nations in one"(as you said). It is over 100 native nations, (each with a different deal) in one.

The "special" (treaty) rights go to tribes(or whatever term is used).


Just like the quote you posted said. Which agrees with me.



_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:26:59 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:37:01 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Does somebody here, besides me, use Habermas' constitutional patriotism as a guide?

I think it helps. Cultural characteristics are ok and maybe an enrichment, as long as they do not hit against the core principles of the Constitution.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:45:25 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Something I just came up with.

People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody; or that they have the "right" to claim for reparation for something done to their ancestors, are using... birthrights. Privileges.

I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being.

The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/4/2011 10:49:13 PM >

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:49:07 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well.

Fcact of life. Sorry.

T^T

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:50:12 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well.

Fcact of life. Sorry.

T^T

For breaking which guideline of the forums? Honestly asking here. I am curious.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:52:00 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Something I just came up with.

People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody; or that they have the "right" to claim for reparation for something done to their ancestors, are using... birthrights. Privileges.

I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being.

The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong.



That's why I mentioned in the earlier thread that my family came out of Germany in 1740 one step ahead of the headsman after a political upheaval.

I have a feeling I'd play hell going over there now, hiring a lawyer and demanding my share of the old family estates eh?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:53:30 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well.

Fcact of life. Sorry.

T^T

For breaking which guideline of the forums? Honestly asking here. I am curious.



Name one and termy will break it LOL

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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