RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 10:54:12 PM

luckydawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

They are not a sovereign nation. they are hundreds of seperate Sovereign nations.

There is no "that right"(as you call it), each tribe( or whatever term is used) has a different set of rights.

and what benefits there are are awarded not on race but by tribal enrollment(or whatever term is used).

Perhaps you are unable to grasp this.

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Post #: 41

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 11:15:13 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Germany in 1740

My ancestors came from Germany also and migrated at the same time as yours... They lived on the border with France and were Huguenots. Settled in now S. Carolina. Family legend has it that they were quite well off before they were forced to America. But what the hell they became quite well off here too.

Butch

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Post #: 42

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 11:22:57 PM

Iamsemisweet

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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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Not quite right. All tribes have certain rights outside of their treaties, like the right to petition for certain lands to be made tribal trust.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

They are not a sovereign nation. they are hundreds of seperate Sovereign nations.

There is no "that right"(as you call it), each tribe( or whatever term is used) has a different set of rights.

and what benefits there are are awarded not on race but by tribal enrollment(or whatever term is used).

Perhaps you are unable to grasp this.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 43

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 11:30:12 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

They are not a sovereign nation. they are hundreds of seperate Sovereign nations.

There is no "that right"(as you call it), each tribe( or whatever term is used) has a different set of rights.

and what benefits there are are awarded not on race but by tribal enrollment(or whatever term is used).

Perhaps you are unable to grasp this.

tribal enrollment is based upon what......

I grasp far more than you realize, little boy.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 44

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:19:19 AM

luckydawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Not quite right. All tribes have certain rights outside of their treaties, like the right to petition for certain lands to be made tribal trust.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

They are not a sovereign nation. they are hundreds of seperate Sovereign nations.

There is no "that right"(as you call it), each tribe( or whatever term is used) has a different set of rights.

and what benefits there are are awarded not on race but by tribal enrollment(or whatever term is used).

Perhaps you are unable to grasp this.

anyone can petition for anything they like.

But a Hawaiian's petition for land that was important to the Navajo Nation would be laughed at.

No special right is required to petition for any ridiculous thing.

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Post #: 45

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:20:34 AM

luckydawg

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Tribal enrollment is determined by whatever criteria the tribe sets. Hence sovereign.

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Post #: 46

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:28:00 AM

tazzygirl

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From the base rolls, most constitutions include as members anyone who at the time of the adoption of the constitution could prove descendency from someone on the rolls. After adoption of the constitution, future generations often have to meet a number of criteria usually relating to descendency from the rolls, their own residency or that of their parents when they were birth, blood quantum or membership of one or both parents. One-fourth degree blood quantum of the particular tribe in question is a nearly universal requirement. Almost all constitutions prevent people from being enrolled in more than one tribe, regardless of their actual blood quantum. These provisions inherently lead to problems of fractional heritage.

http://www.airpi.org/pubs/enroll.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 47

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 2:36:41 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Tribal enrollment is determined by whatever criteria the tribe sets. Hence sovereign.

By US law. Hence, not sovereign, as it depends on the US constitution, laws and regulations.
The USA are a sovereign state, not anything depending on it for its implementation. "Supreme" power acknowledges no power over it.
Would I say :)

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 48

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 3:46:04 AM

Endivius

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The answer to this question is simple : All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction.

Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.

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Post #: 49

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 4:21:26 AM

mons

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hello
I read the thread you are starting you had mention that you know the black slavery thing will come up!
It is not about slavery, it is about lyching way past slavery era's now the case of Emette till, case in point!
this was during the 50's, and it was about the dumb luck of a kid whom happen to have a lisp and use a whistling sound
to help him talk they thought he whistle at a white woman, he was lyched, and so many other things done to him that no one could even tell! When you bring up things fron the past it is not about slavery it is about things that have happen and still happen! So please slavery is the last thing on the minds of African Amercians, but also remember it is a part of our Amercian History!!!! We want the same thing as many others want for their children good educational system, protection in the places they live, mind everyone here, the people whom live in those places where murders happen so often, I know for certain many people whom live there are frighten out of their minds, they want it be safe to walk their children to school! Go to the store, and come home alive! There a mistaken belief that they love it there and this is for the young people also, they want to be safe and have no more crime!!!!!! This is why I made sure I never live in places where crime is bad! My children are and i am proud of them, one is attonery the other a engieer ( spell wrong spell check is not working) and the other is an aritst!!!! They became this way becasue we never let them down we worked hard we taught them everything my mother taught us self respect, respect your friends if they do not give you respect in return leave them the hell alone! Respect your commuities!!! The way you speak is the way people will see you, so that is number,one, my father taught us to speak well! Education is the key to sucess and keep learning and reading all you can,, no one can stop you go for it all!! Now there are places where people are poor and it is not only in African Amercian neiborghoods but in the hills of Tenesses! Has anyone here of the White's! Jessup White well he is the was the town drunk and what some of you would call poor whites i will not use that word , ever! They are a scream so everyone, each race has a damn fool making sure everyone looks at how they act, and they think "this is how white people in America act"or this is how "African Americans act also" ? I saw a special on a man they call an American Gansgter! He was an African American!!! He was the one whom brought drugs into the African American communities! He destroy our places and he was crazy and brutal and did things to hurt and when anyone went to the police he had them murder! Fear help kept the drugs dealers alive! I told my son this and he was shocked as I was! This is the true but then no one came to help the comunities after he was sent to prison! How does one rebuild communities without the support of city leader's or Government law inforcement! I lived in a place so wonderful and yes we could leave our doors and windows unlocled!
mons

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 50

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 5:27:12 AM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Please, no personal insults.

Firm

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Post #: 51

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 5:31:37 AM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
However, if we use the example of Native Americans, when America was first born, we literally pushed the Native Americans into little reservations, that they still inhabit today. Even though this generation may not have physically taken their land, we still possess it. How do you make up for those injustices? How do you make it right for everyone?

i dunno how people apply this logic to others, but then, when you even think of applying it to black people, you get "omgz get over it already."
the tobacco industry had hundreds of years of free labor; if you were to build a business how much further ahead could you get if you took resources from others and never gave them anything back for it? if you didn't have to pay a good chunk of your workforce for hundreds of years? that's a heck of a bottom line.

but no, we don't want to discuss black issues because "how far back do we go?"

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(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 52

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 5:57:39 AM

Fightdirecto

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Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Something I just came up with.

People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody...are using... birthrights. Privileges.

I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being.

The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong.

An example of those Americans who feel they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody:

Attachment (1)

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"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 53

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 6:19:57 AM

ColumbusDominant

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Joined: 6/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i dunno how people apply this logic to others, but then, when you even think of applying it to black people, you get "omgz get over it already."
the tobacco industry had hundreds of years of free labor; if you were to build a business how much further ahead could you get if you took resources from others and never gave them anything back for it? if you didn't have to pay a good chunk of your workforce for hundreds of years? that's a heck of a bottom line.

but no, we don't want to discuss black issues because "how far back do we go?"

Show me a black person who has been a slave here in these United States and I will fully support forcing the slaveowner to pay them ridiculously well for their suffering. Short of that, yeah, it is time to get over it already. You don't corner the market on generations of suffering, but you seem to be the only people who hold so tightly to the victim mentality.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 54

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 6:42:38 AM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
But I do think everyone should adhere to some "WASP" type values. The ideals of Human Rights and a Democratic Republic for example. If folks want to live differently they are free to leave.

A belief in Human Rights and a Democratic Republic - good.

But what of those who say that, in order to really be an American, you must also adhere to other "WASP"-type values - like you must belong to a Protestant Christian church rather than a Roman Catholic church or an Islamic mosque or no church at all, you must never speak any language other than English even in the privacy of your own home, you must be a fan of American Football and not soccer, you must watch "American Idol" rather than "Masterpiece Theater", etc? If you do not adhere to these "WASP"-type values - should you be required to forcibly emigrate to another country?

Remember, not every American will agree on what constitutes "WASP"-type values - some have a much more rigid and more detailed list of "what is required to be an American" values & beliefs.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 55

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 7:04:21 AM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Btu I do think everyone should adhere to some "WASP" type values. The ideals of Human Rights and a Democratic Republic for example.

Those are WASP values?

pam

(in reply to luckydawg)

Post #: 56

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 7:12:12 AM

Aynne88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColumbusDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i dunno how people apply this logic to others, but then, when you even think of applying it to black people, you get "omgz get over it already."
the tobacco industry had hundreds of years of free labor; if you were to build a business how much further ahead could you get if you took resources from others and never gave them anything back for it? if you didn't have to pay a good chunk of your workforce for hundreds of years? that's a heck of a bottom line.

but no, we don't want to discuss black issues because "how far back do we go?"

Show me a black person who has been a slave here in these United States and I will fully support forcing the slaveowner to pay them ridiculously well for their suffering. Short of that, yeah, it is time to get over it already. You don't corner the market on generations of suffering, but you seem to be the only people who hold so tightly to the victim mentality.

Really? I thought it was the poor white male. Oh and your name? Hardly a surprising response considering you think the man that raped and plundered the Native Americans is someone to admire.

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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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(in reply to ColumbusDominant)

Post #: 57

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 7:23:25 AM

StrangerThan

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I had to think about this one for a while because I have and have had a lot of friends and acquaintances from many cultures and countries. My first reaction to question one is no. Multiculturalism is not a bad thing. What I've observed over the years is something Butch noted, in that, the initial wave of immigrants tend to hold on to their heritage and isolate themselves as a society within a society much more so than succeeding generations. It's almost like watching a ripple on a pond. The farther out it travels, the weaker it becomes, and yet manages to retain its overall shape. Travel far enough down that line and what remains isn't much more than a ghostly image of where it started.

I think it has some undesirable sides to it though, and not just among the individual cultures. The retention of culture among a culture tends to occur most, at least from my perspective, where there are high concentrations of the same groups. I don't see that as undesirable, if anything, it is the social pressure to do so that has me wondering where the good line is vs the bad one. I took part in a class years ago where the instructor asked everyone to identify themselves in terms of who they were and culture. As she went round the room, I heard everything from Mexian-American, to Indian-American, to African-American... and on down the line. When she came to me, I simply said American. That wasn't good enough for her. I finally ended up being African-American. When she blinked and asked if my descendents came from South Africa, I said I didn't know, but that if we follow what science teaches us, we all came from Africa, and that anything else was simply choosing a place on the path over the starting point. I told her if I was going to do that, the point I chose was to simply be American, since my family came over in 1580 on one side, and 1740 on the other.

The two issues that raises in my mind. One is related to a post DYB wrote out here a couple of months ago. It doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter where you grew up, doesn't matter what language you speak at home. What matters in terms of making a life here and enjoying success across a broad spectrum is learning to play the game or assimilate, in other words. The tendency to hunker down in like groups and in like communities inhibits that to a degree, and seems as if it would breed eventual discontent, eventual dislike of others where that lack of broad spectrum appeal in business would almost certainly seem to be a prejudice, when in fact as much prejudicial action occurs on side A as it does side B. That is a point you cannot address in today's world without being painted as racist or anti-something.

The second issue comes into the endless categorization we've adopted in trying to give everyone a sense of uniqueness and heritage. It is more difficult to bind a country when everyone within it ends up feeling as there's an US and a THEM, and there's a lot of that in the US. About the only time we seem to come together as one is when we're under attack from the outside. To me, aspects of all cultures are uniquely inherent aspects of culture within the US as virtually every culture is represented here. I think the policy is divisive in itself. Shrug.

As for the second, I don't agree with reparations. I believe it heightens the US and THEM idea. I believe every single person on the face of the planet has a historical stance where injustice was done to them or their people. I think the best you can do is to establish an equal playing field, where everyone has the same chances available to them, where the ultimate decision on their success or lack thereof is more related to personal choices and responsibility than to who they are.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 10/5/2011 7:25:11 AM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 8:07:43 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Really?

I'm sorry Aynne, but I think your last post was insulting and uncalled for, even if it doesn't merit mod intervention.

Could we please restrict the discussion to ideas, and not personalities? I think the the posters have done an exceptionally good job so far, and I'd like to keep it as professional as possible.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 59

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 8:09:55 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Excellent post.

I don't really know how to put my own feelings together better.

I love uniqueness. I love celebrating uniqueness. I love exploring different cultures and what they have to offer, to enrich all of our lives. (being a foodie, especially food...)

BUT, I hate the 'us and them' mindset. I hate 'ism'. I hate the whole mindset of anyone that isn't us, is wrong/less/whatever.

All too often, the two tend to walk hand in hand. The more 'them' celebrates their uniqueness, 'us' takes offense and treats 'them' badly. Then it becomes 'ism' and wrong.

The idea of reparation, while I appreciate the intent.......to ME, it only creates more 'ism'. At some point it becomes idealistic and unrealistic.

For everyone, every single person that has been a victim, every group that has been victimized, there comes a point when individuals have to stop playing the victim card as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility. Where that line is, that is the gray area. I don't know where it is. I think, for each person, each group, maybe it's a very delicately individual thing. Even within the groups. Yet, is it realistic to attempt to make reparations, assist.........indefinitely? I don't think so. But.........there will always be those that, at some level, need it and perhaps even deserve it. There will always be those that fall through the cracks, get left out....unfairly. No matter how good the intentions.

Also, there will always be people like myself, that despise the victim mentality. Usually based upon our own personal shit and determination to avoid BEING a victim and instead looking towards the future... as a survivor. Taking responsibility for ourselves, our lives, our future and the futures of those in our care. We cast aside the cloak of victim with distaste and disdain. Hating it as much for ourselves as others. Despising, even if unfairly, the sense of entitlement of those that continue to wear that cloak......often in our eyes....with pride.

I am not saying that our mindset is correct or just.......it just is.

I don't know the answers. I do think that we are evolving in a good way and hopefully our children, their children, and so on......will learn to cope much better with this issue than we have.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/5/2011 8:28:22 AM >

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 60

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