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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 8:28:24 AM   
GreedyTop


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 9:11:16 AM   
Missokyst


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Status: offline 		When I was growing up and my parents would often switch to Spanish so that they could speak without letting we children know what they were saying I asked her why we (kids) didnt learn spanish. She told me because it was better for us that we did not. Apparently when her and my dad were of school age they were punished for speaking even a word or two in spanish, so they learned never to use anything but english while in the company of anything other than family. And they chose not to teach us spanish so that we would never face that same difficulty.

Then when I was of school age we moved into a very WASP city where people of my color literally lived on the other side of the tracks. It is amazing how every turn from family and friends caused me to assess myself, my color, my origin, my very blood, as inferior. I made sure I had no sort of accent. I learned every word in the english dictionary and examined the pronounciations. I spent a lot of time not speaking, while I listened to what was acceptable. I became "not like of those other mexicans" to my friends, and an oreo to my family.
I didn't really started questioning if this was normal until I met my husbands family. They were polish and german. When we went to visit them in a small town near chicago and people didn't think twice about using foreign (to me) words.

Language unites. For that reason since the predominant language in the US is still english, I think everyone of us who lives here should speak it. But culture is more than language. It is custom, food, celebration, accomplishments, a shared past that reminds people from where they sprung. It allows people to embrace their heritage and themselves as having value at root level. Having always battled the yoke of inferiority I admire those that can embrace their ethnicity. Without multiculturalism I might not have ever tasted sushi or lasagna. Without it I might not have learned the joy of dancing. I would ask, what is acceptable? Whose culture should be deemed "the one" that we all should embrace?

As for the second question. No, I do not see the reasoning for being paid back by the country that won. Those are the rules of war and occupation. Sometimes we lose.


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 9:18:37 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		awesome post, Misso!

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 9:51:14 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced:  by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.

Firm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

When most speak of the detrimental effects of multiculturalism, I find they are really saying, "Those people aren't acting and living like Caucasians of a British heritage."


I'm for preserving one's heritage. However, I think one should make every effort to learn the language of the country in which one resides. When I lived in Japan, I picked up enough conversational Japanese to be polite. When I formed the intent to go to Costa Rica, I signed up for a Spanish class. Both of these visits were temporary - if I were to make another country my home I would immerse myself in the language.

At my company, I am the only Caucasian woman. We have employees from all over the world. We get the same holidays that UPS does and people can take personal time for religious/ethnic holidays. Every year I organize an International Food Friday and people bring in food representing their heritage.

There's a little Hinglish and Spanglish, but for the most part the salad bowl works really well for us.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 10:00:34 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColumbusDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i dunno how people apply this logic to others, but then, when you even think of applying it to black people, you get "omgz get over it already."
the tobacco industry had hundreds of years of free labor; if you were to build a business how much further ahead could you get if you took resources from others and never gave them anything back for it? if you didn't have to pay a good chunk of your workforce for hundreds of years? that's a heck of a bottom line.

but no, we don't want to discuss black issues because "how far back do we go?"



Show me a black person who has been a slave here in these United States and I will fully support forcing the slaveowner to pay them ridiculously well for their suffering. Short of that, yeah, it is time to get over it already. You don't corner the market on generations of suffering, but you seem to be the only people who hold so tightly to the victim mentality.


see, the thing is, you think you're saying something i've never heard before, but look at the post i was referencing. that post is about making things right with the Native Americans, and all of the stuff that needs to be "made right" happened GENERATIONS ago. they are free to move out into the cities and do the same things everyone else can.
but there's no one pointing at them and saying "get over it already."

you're not as smart as you think. you're just the usual reactionary nimrod that i've come to expect.

and Aynne has a point -- all we hear about these days is how the average white male is losing everything, has been emasculated, can't get a job because of women and those darn minorities, blah blah blah -- talk about throwing around a victim card.


< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 10/5/2011 10:02:28 AM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 10:31:16 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced:  by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

When most speak of the detrimental effects of multiculturalism, I find they are really saying, "Those people aren't acting and living like Caucasians of a British heritage."

I'm for preserving one's heritage. However, I think one should make every effort to learn the language of the country in which one resides. When I lived in Japan, I picked up enough conversational Japanese to be polite.

But, when you were living in Japan - did you continue to speak English at home with you family, or did you speak only Japanese at home? Did you call your Dominant "Master" at home or did you call him "のマスター"? Did you go to the court and legally change your name to a Japanese name? Did you give up whatever religion you followed (or your atheism, if you did not follow a religion) and begin attending service at the local Shinto temple?

There are Americans who demand that anyone coming to America and becoming an American citizen do the equivilent.(see my earlier comment [Post 16] about my ex-wife's family and Missokyst's excellent comment [Post #61]) They must abandon all vestiges of their former culture (language, food, religion, holidays, etc.) or they will be adjudged as being part of "detrimental multiculturalism".

If someone of Mexican ancestry who is an American citizen speaks Spanish at home with their spouse and children, celebrates Cinco de Mayo, plays Mexican music on their i-Pod and watches Univision on their TV really an American citizen? Some would say "No" - even though that person was born in the United States to a family that can trace their American citizenship back to an ancestor who fought side-by-side with Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett at the Alamo againt Santa Anna. They would claim the person, at best, was an example of "detrimental multiculturalism" and not a "real" American.

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(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 10:51:35 AM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
However, if we use the example of Native Americans, when America was first born, we literally pushed the Native Americans into little reservations, that they still inhabit today. Even though this generation may not have physically taken their land, we still possess it. How do you make up for those injustices? How do you make it right for everyone?



i dunno how people apply this logic to others, but then, when you even think of applying it to black people, you get "omgz get over it already."
the tobacco industry had hundreds of years of free labor; if you were to build a business how much further ahead could you get if you took resources from others and never gave them anything back for it? if you didn't have to pay a good chunk of your workforce for hundreds of years? that's a heck of a bottom line.

but no, we don't want to discuss black issues because "how far back do we go?"




I understand you Lilly. I used the injustices of the Native American because Firm was particularly interested in discussing Native Americans. It doesn't for a moment discount the injustices of keeping black people in slavery. Here is a link with a timeline

http://ecoinformatics.uvm.edu/SET/cumberland_history.html

It is the history of a small island in Georgia called Cumberland Island. Cumberland Island was initially inhabited by the Native Americans, Timacuans. Through history, and after several turn of events, land was sold to people who bought plantations and slaves were kept there. In fact, the ships from Africa docked at Cumberland Island to sell their people into slavery. I have visited Cumberland Island and saw The Chimney's, which are the remnants of the shanty's where the slaves lived.

I truly can understand the emotion tied to slavery and the stigma that to this day, in some places, still exists. It doesn't make any of it right. That we bought, kept, used and benefited from the labor of slaves, thankfully is history now and no longer exists. It doesn't mean that you should forget that part of history and just get over it. I wouldn't want to dismiss (and I doubt many would want to dismiss) their ancestry. But, I wouldn't want it to hinder myself, or keep myself bitter with the fact that I know it, either.

I wish you peace and wellness, LillyBoPeep.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 11:22:23 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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Status: offline 		it has neither hindered me, nor made me bitter. those are very common assumptions that people make based on whatever (often incorrect) judgments they carry about other people. what annoys me, though, is this attitude that one is totally worthwhile to discuss, while another very similar thing is not worthwhile. 

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 11:38:38 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

If someone of Mexican ancestry who is an American citizen speaks Spanish at home with their spouse and children, celebrates Cinco de Mayo, plays Mexican music on their i-Pod and watches Univision on their TV really an American citizen? Some would say "No" - even though that person was born in the United States to a family that can trace their American citizenship back to an ancestor who fought side-by-side with Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett at the Alamo againt Santa Anna. They would claim the person, at best, was an example of "detrimental multiculturalism" and not a "real" American.


I couldn't agree with the bolded more strongly.

Firm - is this what you mean by detrimental multiculturalism?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:23:52 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

If someone of Mexican ancestry who is an American citizen speaks Spanish at home with their spouse and children, celebrates Cinco de Mayo, plays Mexican music on their i-Pod and watches Univision on their TV really an American citizen? Some would say "No" - even though that person was born in the United States to a family that can trace their American citizenship back to an ancestor who fought side-by-side with Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett at the Alamo againt Santa Anna. They would claim the person, at best, was an example of "detrimental multiculturalism" and not a "real" American.


I couldn't agree with the bolded more strongly.

Firm - is this what you mean by detrimental multiculturalism?

Is it "detrimental multiculturalism" if that same person speaks English on the job or to a non-Spanish speaking store clerk?

How far must a person assimilate into British-based Caucasian American society before that person is no longer "detrimentally multicultural"?

Must I, an American of Irish ancestry, stop drinking Guinness and switch to Coors so that I will no longer be "detrimentally multicultural"?

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:30:16 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Multiculturalism issues often comes up in the legal context, and it is difficult to deal with.  For example, in a California case from 1985, a Japanese America found out her husband was cheating, and attempted parent-child suicide by wading into the ocean with her children.  They drowned, she did not, and she was charged with murder.  Although parent suicide is illegal in Japan (naturally) it is not unheard of as a means to avoid the shame of something like a divorce.  The Japanese American community got together a petition trying to convince the prosecutor not to prosecute because her actions were based on a different worldview, that it was more cruel to leave the children behind then take them into the afterlife with her. While she was prosecuted, the charge was reduced to manslaughter in a plea bargain, in part because of a related insanity defense, but also based on her cultural defense.  She had lived in the US for a few years before the crime, but had remained culturally isolated.
There are a number of similar cases where defenses are raised based on the customs in a particular defendant's country, with varying success and almost always in conjunction with some kind of insanity defense.
In my own practice, I had a case where a recent immigrant married a man from the same country who had lived in the US for many years.  When he died, she refused to believe that she was not entitled to the house where they lived (which she was not, for various reasons) because in her country, the house would have automatically gone to the widow.  Obviously that argument did not fly with the judge.
My view is that at least in the legal context, multiculturism has no place.  I think it leads to an uneven and unfair application of the law.  I don't care whether people from other cultures learn the language, for example, but I do care that they follow the law of this country, if they elect to come here.  For example, genital mutilation of girls is common and legal in some African countries, but is illegal here.  Still happens, but I believe the parents who allow this should be punished for child abuse, regardless of their cultural beliefs.



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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:31:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:


How far must a person assimilate into British-based Caucasian American society before that person is no longer "detrimentally multicultural"?


How far.... good question.

I think the answer is easier to reach than you may realize.

Language

Adherence to laws

I dont consider these to be detrimental.... I do see them as causing many, many problems... especially for the person who doesnt "conform".

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:33:40 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From the base rolls, most constitutions include as members anyone who at the time of the adoption of the constitution could prove descendency from someone on the rolls. After adoption of the constitution, future generations often have to meet a number of criteria usually relating to descendency from the rolls, their own residency or that of their parents when they were birth, blood quantum or membership of one or both parents. One-fourth degree blood quantum of the particular tribe in question is a nearly universal requirement. Almost all constitutions prevent people from being enrolled in more than one tribe, regardless of their actual blood quantum. These provisions inherently lead to problems of fractional heritage.

http://www.airpi.org/pubs/enroll.html



Yes tazzy, each has a seperate constitution (though not always called constitutions) with its own criteria.

exactly as I said.


THe rights they get are not racially based, but tribal enrollment based. Each tribe having a different deal.

Its not two nations in one, its is over a hundred nations in one, each with a different treaty relationship with the Feds.


Why do you keep putting up quotes that agree with me, while arguing I am wrong?



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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:36:05 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Btu I do think everyone should adhere to some "WASP" type values. The ideals of Human Rights and a Democratic Republic for example.


Those are WASP values?

pam



Aren't they?

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:37:59 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Something I just came up with.

People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody...are using... birthrights. Privileges.

I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being.

The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong.


An example of those Americans who feel they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody:

Ah, the Democrats. Look at that fat one to the right, could that have been,.....Ted Kennedy?





< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/5/2011 12:55:05 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:40:07 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From the base rolls, most constitutions include as members anyone who at the time of the adoption of the constitution could prove descendency from someone on the rolls. After adoption of the constitution, future generations often have to meet a number of criteria usually relating to descendency from the rolls, their own residency or that of their parents when they were birth, blood quantum or membership of one or both parents. One-fourth degree blood quantum of the particular tribe in question is a nearly universal requirement. Almost all constitutions prevent people from being enrolled in more than one tribe, regardless of their actual blood quantum. These provisions inherently lead to problems of fractional heritage.

http://www.airpi.org/pubs/enroll.html



Yes tazzy, each has a seperate constitution (though not always called constitutions) with its own criteria.

exactly as I said.


THe rights they get are not racially based, but tribal enrollment based. Each tribe having a different deal.

Its not two nations in one, its is over a hundred nations in one, each with a different treaty relationship with the Feds.


Why do you keep putting up quotes that agree with me, while arguing I am wrong?





So then how would you charactarize the indian nations vis a vis the states constitutions (which have different deals with our federal government, depending on states rights, but some overreaching commonality in the nation) and say the fed bureau of indian affairs their common government?

you want to mince that out in the same rather inept way?

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:44:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		Every single one of us is a conglomeration of cultures. We are what we are…different from all the cultures of the past we arose from…It happens to all people within a given culture and outside it. Cultural is fleeting and ever changing…As different cultures and groups arrive in the US they immediately begin to change…They take on culture from the host and also give culture to the majority. After a few generations there is a new majority culture that includes both old groups.

I am of three cultures… that themselves were made of combinations of previous cultures. I know and appreciate the history of my Cherokee, German, and Italian heritage but I am American through and through…as will eventually new groups and cultures that arrive here.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:48:15 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From the base rolls, most constitutions include as members anyone who at the time of the adoption of the constitution could prove descendency from someone on the rolls. After adoption of the constitution, future generations often have to meet a number of criteria usually relating to descendency from the rolls, their own residency or that of their parents when they were birth, blood quantum or membership of one or both parents. One-fourth degree blood quantum of the particular tribe in question is a nearly universal requirement. Almost all constitutions prevent people from being enrolled in more than one tribe, regardless of their actual blood quantum. These provisions inherently lead to problems of fractional heritage.

http://www.airpi.org/pubs/enroll.html



Yes tazzy, each has a seperate constitution (though not always called constitutions) with its own criteria.

exactly as I said.


THe rights they get are not racially based, but tribal enrollment based. Each tribe having a different deal.

Its not two nations in one, its is over a hundred nations in one, each with a different treaty relationship with the Feds.


Why do you keep putting up quotes that agree with me, while arguing I am wrong?





So then how would you charactarize the indian nations vis a vis the states constitutions (which have different deals with our federal government, depending on states rights, but some overreaching commonality in the nation) and say the fed bureau of indian affairs their common government?

you want to mince that out in the same rather inept way?



To what end? Do you think States are sovereign nations that have a treaty relationship with the US Goverment?



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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:49:46 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From the base rolls, most constitutions include as members anyone who at the time of the adoption of the constitution could prove descendency from someone on the rolls. After adoption of the constitution, future generations often have to meet a number of criteria usually relating to descendency from the rolls, their own residency or that of their parents when they were birth, blood quantum or membership of one or both parents. One-fourth degree blood quantum of the particular tribe in question is a nearly universal requirement. Almost all constitutions prevent people from being enrolled in more than one tribe, regardless of their actual blood quantum. These provisions inherently lead to problems of fractional heritage.

http://www.airpi.org/pubs/enroll.html



Yes tazzy, each has a seperate constitution (though not always called constitutions) with its own criteria.

exactly as I said.


THe rights they get are not racially based, but tribal enrollment based. Each tribe having a different deal.

Its not two nations in one, its is over a hundred nations in one, each with a different treaty relationship with the Feds.


Why do you keep putting up quotes that agree with me, while arguing I am wrong?




With blood quantum being almost universally a requirement.

Its about race.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/5/2011 12:53:50 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
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Status: offline 		no its not.

Like I said you really don't grasp qualifiers. ALMOST. MOST. USUALLY.

Its like you are retarted and can't grasp those sorts of words and concepts.

None of those are defining criteria.

Membership is. Which is decided by each Sovereign nation, to its own standards.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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