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RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 2:55:15 PM   
OldRemi


Posts: 3
Joined: 9/10/2011
Status: offline 		I am afraid that I must agree with your client.  He who pays the piper calls the tune.  That does not mean that you add a certain amount of imaginative ex tempore activity in addition to his script, as long as he has been forewarned and agrees, and as long as you genuinely believe that it is consistent with his desires,  If I were the client I would happily write a script, but be delighted with a pleasant, (yet fiendishly unpleasant) extension of the stated plan.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 3:08:54 PM   
MissKittyDeVine


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/24/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, yeah, whatever. All these replies prove that the BDSM world can be as narrow-minded as the vanilla one.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 3:11:35 PM   
MissKittyDeVine


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/24/2011
Status: offline 		By that logic, lifestylers could be called unpaid prostitutes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

IMO being a ProDomme does not make me any less genuine than a lifestyler.
Nor does it make you any less a part of the sex trade than Hanners was. Hanners has nothing against prostitutes, nor do most of the people who posted on this thread, our problem is with the disconnect displayed by the "ProDommes" <I prefer Hanners' term Top-for-Hire> in insisting they aren't sex workers, that what they do really is domination, rather than service topping for pay.

The fact is that what you do for a living is trade sexual services for money, and that fits every definition I have ever read of the word "prostitution", so I wouldn't be so certain about that whole "Pro stands for Professional" thing.


What is it with this whole ´I´m more BDSM than you´attitude?


< Message edited by MissKittyDeVine -- 10/13/2011 3:14:25 PM >

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 3:17:45 PM   
Hisprettybaby


Posts: 781
Joined: 4/13/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I actually wondered, at one point, whether being a stay-at-home spouse and being supported while performing sex and other duties made one a prostitute. Esp for the spouses who stay just because they are being supported. Does it? I mean, if we're getting technical, being supported and giving the one who supports you sex...... Where do we draw the line? Just something to think about.

(in reply to MissKittyDeVine)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 3:47:50 PM   
CuriousPuppy


Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKittyDeVine

By that logic, lifestylers could be called unpaid prostitutes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

IMO being a ProDomme does not make me any less genuine than a lifestyler.
Nor does it make you any less a part of the sex trade than Hanners was. Hanners has nothing against prostitutes, nor do most of the people who posted on this thread, our problem is with the disconnect displayed by the "ProDommes" <I prefer Hanners' term Top-for-Hire> in insisting they aren't sex workers, that what they do really is domination, rather than service topping for pay.

The fact is that what you do for a living is trade sexual services for money, and that fits every definition I have ever read of the word "prostitution", so I wouldn't be so certain about that whole "Pro stands for Professional" thing.


What is it with this whole ´I´m more BDSM than you´attitude?


The thread started with a pro "dom" complaining that she had a client telling her what he expected to get out of hiring her only to have people state the obvious and point out that she is selling her services, not participating in a non-business relationship where she could expect to get the sort of thing she was complaining she didn't get.  Clearly the OP and others expected her to get a bunch of people consoling & congratulating her for putting up with the client in question about how the client in question instead of telling him that he was not a "real submissive" or something. I can't see any reason why you would honestly expect anything else that what developed in this thread (minus the earlier midthread hijack till it got back on track).

(in reply to MissKittyDeVine)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 3:47:52 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressJulia1

Interesting the number of people making claims about what Pro Dommes are and do when by their own admission they have no experience of being one.  


What I claim is that you are a sex worker who takes money to provide a service and therefore have no business telling the client what you think they do or don't want, or to complain if the service you provide doesn't get you off.

What exactlly, do you dispute about that? The fact that you are a sex worker? The fact that the client/sub pays you to fulfill their fantasy, not yours? Or that you have no right to complain if you aren't enjoying yourself? Perhaps you don't like the concept of being grouped in with all sex workers and like the OP, think you are a "special" sex worker?

I've said all along, a pro is certainly free to tell a client that they will not be able to meet the client's needs and to refer them somewhere else. You DON'T however, get to complain that they pay you to provide services on the list of things you do and then tell you which services they want. It's THEIR choice, not yours.

Of course, the OP doesn't know any other reputable dommes, she is the only decent one that exists in her locale. Perhaps that is what you have an issue with? Because quite frankly, I not only find it difficult to believe, I find it difficult to believe half of what she says.

You don't like it? Oh well, not only am I not your sub, I'm not your client. I can and will say what I want. She asked for an opinion, and she got them. Out of nine pages, minus the three devoted to ragging on Kevin, only two people agreed with her, you and one other person. And there were other pros here as well, which shoots your above statement all to hell. Get over yourself.

(in reply to MistressJulia1)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 4:15:23 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		Lemme get this straight you think a lifestyler who stays at home is a prostitute??? Someone who I love and adore... a girl that tends to me when I'm sick.. My bitch that cooks and cleans up my mess. A person who vision and dreams are similar to mine. A girl that I would literally lay down my life for protecting. That is your idea of a prostitute??? You'd better think again.

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 10/13/2011 4:16:28 PM >

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 4:20:35 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

As long as the OP does not "performs, or offers, or agrees to perform, sexual intercourse or deviate sexual conduct," she is NOT engaging in prostitution in her jurisdiction.

35-41-1-9 “Deviate sexual conduct” defined

Sec. 9. “Deviate sexual conduct” means an act involving:

(1) a sex organ of one person and the mouth or anus of another person; or

(2) the penetration of the sex organ or anus of a person by an object.



Actually, if you look at the other pictures posted on her profile, where various objects are applied to a penis, the IS engaging in prostitution in her jurisdiction. You were looking at the wrong statute.

IC 35-45-4-2: Prostitution
35-45-4-2 Sec. 2. A person who knowingly or intentionally:


(1) performs, or offers or agrees to perform, sexual intercourse or deviate sexual conduct; or

(2) fondles, or offers or agrees to fondle, the genitals of another person; for money or other property commits prostitution, a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class D felony if the person has two (2) prior convictions under this section.

While for most people applying clothespins to a penis would not be considered "fondling," in the eyes of the law, the argument would be that she was fondling the gentitals of another for payment. As I said before, the exchange of goods or services in exchange for the pleasure of such acts is still considered prostitution.

Also, there could be an argument that the clothespins (and definately the needles) are penetrating a sex organ.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 4:33:31 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I actually wondered, at one point, whether being a stay-at-home spouse and being supported while performing sex and other duties made one a prostitute. Esp for the spouses who stay just because they are being supported. Does it? I mean, if we're getting technical, being supported and giving the one who supports you sex...... Where do we draw the line? Just something to think about.


You're not the first to think about that!

http://www.notable-quotes.com/p/prostitution_quotes.html

We say that slavery has vanished from European civilization, but this is not true. Slavery still exists, but now it applies only to women and its name is prostitution.

------VICTOR HUGO, Les Misérables

To the moralist prostitution does not consist so much in the fact that the woman sells her body, but rather that she sells it out of wedlock.

------EMMA GOLDMAN, Anarchism and Other Essays

What is marriage but prostitution to one man instead of many?

------ANGELA CARTER, Nights at the Circus

Marriage is for woman the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution.

------BERTRAND RUSSELL, Marriage and Morals

Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.

------JERRY FALWELL, Crossfire, May 17, 1997

Nowhere is woman treated according to the merit of her work, but rather as a sex. It is therefore almost inevitable that she should pay for her right to exist, to keep a position in whatever line, with sex favors. Thus it is merely a question of degree whether she sells herself to one man, in or out of marriage, or to many men!... The economic and social inferiority of woman is responsible for prostitution.

------EMMA GOLDMAN, Feminism

Prostitution is not just a service industry, mopping up the overflow of male demand, which always exceeds female supply. Prostitution testifies to the amoral power struggle of sex.... Prostitutes, pornographers, and their patrons are marauders in the forest of archaic night.

------CAMILLE PAGLIA, Sexual Personae

Prostitution reinforces all the old dumb clichés about women’s sexuality; that they are not built to enjoy sex and are little more than walking masturbation aids, things to be DONE TO, things so sensually null and void that they have to be paid to indulge in fornication, that women can be had, bought, as often as not sold from one man to another. When the sex war is won prostitutes should be shot as collaborators for their terrible betrayal of all women.

------JULIE BURCHILL, "Born Again Cows," Damaged Gods

When prostitution is a crime, the message conveyed is that women who are sexual are “bad,” and therefore legitimate victims of sexual assault. Sex becomes a weapon to be used by men.

------MARGO ST. JAMES, San Francisco Examiner, Apr. 29, 1979

(in reply to Hisprettybaby)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 4:49:23 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKittyDeVine

For those so against ProDommes, consider your own profession. Would you work for free? No, of course you wouldn´t.


At what point has anyone here said she should work for free?

quote:


We all have bills to pay and a living to make. This is not a competition to prove anyone´s more genuinely fetish/BDSM than another person. IMO being a ProDomme does not make me any less genuine than a lifestyler. Different strokes for different folks (pun intentional).


Again, where has anyone even tried to prove one was more genuine than the other?


ETA: So kalikshama, does that about cover the "point by point?"
quote:


I don´t look down on someone who does it for the thrills, so why look down on those of us who choose to make our living this way?


No one has once looked down at those who choose to make their living as a pro domme on this thread. We HAVE questioned the OP's business accumen and custumer service skills. We have also questioned why she thinks her pleasure and enjoyment has any bearing on what her client wants.

quote:


There´s room for everyone in this scene. We´re all looking for a match, so if you don´t want to pay for a session, all you have to do is move along and try to find a fellow lifestyler who´s a good match.


Actually, the pro dommes are NOT looking for a match, they are looking for a paycheck. There are those here who are "marketing" themselves in the hopes of finding a mate. That is NOT the equivalent of "marketing" yourself in the hopes of finding someone to pay for the privilege of your company. In your case, the hope that they will pay for the privilege of you telling them what to do on line.

So NO, it is NOT the same thing. If you don't understand the difference, I'm sure you get more than your fair share of emails from subs who ARE looking for a relationship they aren't paying for, so you will just have to remain clueless.

quote:


This is not a discussion, it´s a bitchfest. And comments like ´Do you really think it's rocket science slap someone or call them names and grovel???´ show the ignorance of what ProDommes (and pro stands for professional, not prostitute, enough of the pathetic insults) put into planning and carrying out sessions.


Ok, I realize that English is likely not your first language, but you have noticed that "pro" is also in "prostitution?" And here in the states (I can't speak for other countries), if a man is talking about sex and talks about having paid for it, he will usually use the term, "pro."

So while I am very tolerant of language barriers, if you are going to come and bitch about something, you best be up on your English skills. Both are pros.

As for the bitchfest, and your comments on mnottertail's post, no it isn't rocket science. Neither is being a prostitute. Neither requires a formal education, or even a certification that shows you have a clue what you are doing. That was his point. There is no "National Academy of Cyber/Phone Sex Domination," or "Institute for Prostitution and Pro Domming," regionally or even the less acceptable nationally accredited "Sex Workers Trade Schools of America."

So the term "pro" is used rather loosely. In the literal sense, since you seem to be in need of a language lesson, a "professional" means nothing more than someone who gets PAID for their services rather than doing them for free. I used to be in a bowling league. The "professional" bowlers were those who made their living playing the game. Do you see the difference?




< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 10/13/2011 4:50:38 PM >

(in reply to MissKittyDeVine)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 5:13:07 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		LL,

Yes, thanks!

I am leaning away from ESL in favor of obtuseness.

KK

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 6:13:45 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKittyDeVine

Yeah, yeah, whatever. All these replies prove that the BDSM world can be as narrow-minded as the vanilla one.


I don't think it's that, MKDV, so much as the fact that there's a belief here at CM that the most important matter in any OP is the perceived, underlying morality involved. I think most people assume that once this is unearthed and spelled out, that's the crucial job done.

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(in reply to MissKittyDeVine)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 6:30:43 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I may be kinky but at least im not a whore is the rationalisation im seeing behind the angst. A way to feel superior over whose kink is more "superior" kink.
Of course... YMMV:)
It happens a lot, BUT people ARE entitled to their POV. ALtho calling someone JUST (OR just AN ANYTHING) a sex worker automatically puts them down the ladder of respect.
I just happen to be a sex worker in the broad sense of the term,I will never be "just a sex worker". And I dont even come into contact with anything but my computer with regards to what I actually work at.


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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 6:52:02 PM   
CuriousPuppy


Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I may be kinky but at least im not a whore is the rationalisation im seeing behind the angst. A way to feel superior over whose kink is more "superior" kink.
Of course... YMMV:)
It happens a lot, BUT people ARE entitled to their POV. ALtho calling someone JUST (OR just AN ANYTHING) a sex worker automatically puts them down the ladder of respect.
I just happen to be a sex worker in the broad sense of the term,I will never be "just a sex worker". And I dont even come into contact with anything but my computer with regards to what I actually work at.



the problem is that the OP was upset that both her and her client didn't treat their business relationship like the personal relationship she admitted to not wanting with him.  She wanted sympathies for putting up with him not treating it like the personal relationship she wanted him to treat it like even though she admittedly did not want a personal relationship.
Had she simply asked if it was wrong for her to reject him as a client or charge him extra because of his desire to script everything out, or if he wanted a personal relationship & she had repeatedly told him that it was just business... you would see a very different thread. But instead the OP came here crying that her client was acting like a person participating in a business transaction rather than someone in a personal relationship

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 7:07:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I may be kinky but at least im not a whore is the rationalisation im seeing behind the angst. A way to feel superior over whose kink is more "superior" kink.
Of course... YMMV:)
It happens a lot, BUT people ARE entitled to their POV. ALtho calling someone JUST (OR just AN ANYTHING) a sex worker automatically puts them down the ladder of respect.
I just happen to be a sex worker in the broad sense of the term,I will never be "just a sex worker". And I dont even come into contact with anything but my computer with regards to what I actually work at.



If you look back on this thread, you will see that the "just a sex worker" thing was said by the OP, who you have defended.

The majority of people on this thread, me included, prior to THAT statement by the OP, had been that while she is certainly free to pick and choose her clients, she needed to face the reality that HER pleasure was inconsequential to her client's session.

To be clear (again), I have no problem with sex workers as a whole, and I do believe that prostitution should be legalized and unionized. I would like to see pimps put out of business so that women who choose to do this (and men) are not facing the abuse that so often occurs.

However, the reality is that there isn't a great deal of difference from one sex worker to the next. No matter how much someone like the OP wants to believe she is "special" and "above" the sex worker on the street, she isn't.

So far on this thread, she has not only made that reference, but also the reference that there are no other reputable pro dommes in her area, something I find really difficult to believe. In her mind, she is a "special, one of a kind sex worker" who is much better than the "average" call girl, and she is miles above all the other pro dommes in her area.

Now really, do you, as someone who works in some way in the sex trade, think all of your peers are shit? Some are, I'm sure. That's normal in ANY business, there are good and bad. But the person who is so deluded as to think they are the only reputable pro in their area is one who usually sucks the most in my experience.

When you add to all of that "I'm a pro domme, hear me roar," bullshit her comment that she would be happy to follow a script if she were in a relationship, I get a picture of a very confused woman who couldn't possibly be anywhere near as valuable in her profession as she believes.

A prodomme who thinks her clients should bring her pleasure, but in her relationships, she should be a fetish delivery system?

Really, I have seen your posts around here for quite a while, and to be honest, you being so vocally supportive of that is unlike you. It would seem as though you have misunderstood this thread and think we are all saying she has no right to turn a client down, which has never been the case.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 7:36:59 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		YOU said it to me dear ....that is where my choice of words came from nowhere else.
Now what you dont see , understand or probably know, is that when I started this thirteen years ago, I had three prodommes from the toronto area take me under their wing and they gave me the BEST advice I have ever had about the bullshit that ONE TWUE way isms is BULLSHIT.
THey taught me the techniques I learned back then, they topped me, they even bottomed to me, they came to my munches, they supported me they were basically the "force" at getting seminars, play parties, a femdom munch in the local "community, they gave me more safety advice, more hints and techniques and amazing ideas, stories and examples of how to be a damn fine top. And hell yes they are allowed to enjoy and DICTATE what they will and wont tolerate taking part in. And YES they even want to enjoy themselves otherwise why would they do it.
Those ladies did more for me than I can ever express. To demean them and kick their kink and their clients kinks is ugly.


While the OP had a couple of scenes with him, she was feeling uncertain, she hadn't at that time taken any money and didnt like the way she felt when topping him. At that point, I still say she has every right to cancel something she doesn't like...if anyone tried to break my limits wether im being paid or not they still wouldn't get what they want.
there is no where to say that she did this to him is there??? If I'm wrong and she stopped a scene half way thru took his money and told him to hit the dirt, I would be right there saying she is wrong, it should have been brought up in pre- scene discussion, and if the scene/script is out of her "limits", it should be stopped , money refunded and crossed off the client list.
I don't give a rats ass about HER personality or her experience or her badness.I sure as hell don't think I am better than her or a hooker or a drug addict.
I get pissed when people call a submissive JUST a submissive or JUST a slave, so its a general peeve I have, which I admit I may have missed in the OPS post.
enjoy your evening



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 7:43:18 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

.if anyone tried to break my limits wether im being paid or not they still wouldn't get what they want.


Her limit was that he wanted to have a script. Our position is that it is fine for a paying customer to have a script. Everyone has said that of course she can reject him as a client, but that he should be able to script the session, within her limits.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 7:46:07 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline 		don't bother, she doesn't have a fucking clue what the rest of the posters are talking about.

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 7:49:04 PM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

don't bother, she doesn't have a fucking clue what the rest of the posters are talking about.


exactly

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The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Yet ANOTHER Pro Domme post - 10/13/2011 8:00:13 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		For the love of mike......  

Where did the op say this client was breaking a hard limit?  I'll check it again, but I didn't see it there.  She had things that were making her unhappy during sessions, but she never once said that she wasn't providing the service and taking his money while she was still currently a pro.  She only decided not to see him anymore after she got out of the business.  It doesn't seem to Me that it was a hard limit until after she got out of the game and he contacted her about purchasing another session.  She had time to think about it and decided the business arrangement didn't work for her.  No issue.  Don't see him again.

A person either takes money for topping or they don't.  I don't happen to because it goes against My personal standards.  That doesn't mean that after all of these years of kicking it around that I know nothing about the trade.  In My opinion, slapping that pro label on yourself doesn't give higher credibility than your average, every day lifestyle Domme (like Me).  It just means you made a few bucks.  In all sincerity, it only takes one paying client to qualify you as a pro.  It doesn't mean that you are any good at it or more qualified as a top.  It just means that somebody paid you and you decided to take the cash.  So, if you took it, and later you decide that you didn't like what it took to get it, that's on nobody but you.


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(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 180
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